Deja Vu - Mechanics

[PeteBooth]

It's funny sometimes how huge debates can come to fruition. In addition we often distinguish our responses between players that shave and those who do not.

If the contoversial play happened at a youth event people would say they are just learning and that wouldn't happen in the PROS.

Another main response is "third world or weird type plays" only happen to third world umpires.

Ok what does all of this have to do with the price of bagles.

During the summer, we had a huge debate on umpire mechanics concerning the VERY play that happened the other night. If memory serves, there were 2 camps.

Camp Number 1 - The same camp that got Doug Eddings in "hot water" meaning say nothing, the players should know what's going on

Camp 2 - verbalize what's going on. In other words say Catch/No catch or batter's out. Give Information

In addition it was mentioned that one wouldn't see these "strange type plays" in the PROS or that these types of things only happend to "Third World Umpires"

Doug Eddings prooved the aforementioned statement false. He is not a "third world umpire" but human and in an interview with the NY Times/Post admitted he made a mistake. Not with the Call but with the MECHANIC.

Therefore, perhaps the PRO Schools will start to change there philosophy and instruct the umpires to be more vocal even at the highest level.

In Summary: The debate probably is not settled, but you saw first hand what happenes when umpires remain silent and do not let anyone know what's going on. Verbalize your calls when it warrants it, especially on an uncaught/caught third strike.

Pete Booth

[RPatrino]

Pete, I agree 100%. To argue about "catch/no catch" is futile, we will never have a definitive answer. To debate this issue really prevents us from dicussing the "REAL" issue in my mind. Mechanics.

The issue for me was the confusing mechanic that Eddings used on the play. You said it perfectly in your article, a little communication would have prevented this from becoming a confligration.

I will begin writing for the site soon, as per Carls motivation.

Bob P.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
It's funny sometimes how huge debates can come to fruition. In addition we often distinguish our responses between players that shave and those who do not.

If the contoversial play happened at a youth event people would say they are just learning and that wouldn't happen in the PROS.

Another main response is "third world or weird type plays" only happen to third world umpires.

Ok what does all of this have to do with the price of bagles.

During the summer, we had a huge debate on umpire mechanics concerning the VERY play that happened the other night. If memory serves, there were 2 camps.

Camp Number 1 - The same camp that got Doug Eddings in "hot water" meaning say nothing, the players should know what's going on

Camp 2 - verbalize what's going on. In other words say Catch/No catch or batter's out. Give Information

In addition it was mentioned that one wouldn't see these "strange type plays" in the PROS or that these types of things only happend to "Third World Umpires"

Doug Eddings prooved the aforementioned statement false. He is not a "third world umpire" but human and in an interview with the NY Times/Post admitted he made a mistake. Not with the Call but with the MECHANIC.

Therefore, perhaps the PRO Schools will start to change there philosophy and instruct the umpires to be more vocal even at the highest level.

In Summary: The debate probably is not settled, but you saw first hand what happenes when umpires remain silent and do not let anyone know what's going on. Verbalize your calls when it warrants it, especially on an uncaught/caught third strike.

Pete Booth

This is a perfect example of how players can make even the best umpires look bad. I'm of the opinion that the players have a responsibility of knowing what the situation is both on offense and defense. As much as possible I try to verbalize my calls especially catch, no catch. To avoid having a "Three Stooges Episode" breaking out on the field. I admit in the past I have not verbalized on whether a ball is in the dirt. I think I'm going to start verbalizing this as well. The vast majority of time everyone knows when it happens. Those times when I'm unsure either the catcher sells me the call or he tags the batter and we have no problems.

[Tim C]

I have NEVER, nor will I ever, say: "Batter's Out!"

T

[GarthB]

I disagree with the entire premise....a dropped third strike is not a third world play.

Eddings got into trouble because of his mechanics. Doesn't matter is you thought he called the batter out or not. doesn't matter if he thought he called the batter out or not. Whatever he was doing, he did poorly and ended up with a sh!t storm.

The lesson here has nothing to do with third world plays. It has everything to do with terrible mechanics.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by Tim C
I have NEVER, nor will I ever, say: "Batter's Out!"

T

Tim, what mechanic do you recommend using when there are less than 2 outs, w/1B occupied, and the ball is in the dirt, and the batter mistakenly starts to run, and the catcher mistakenly starts to go after the batter, meanwhile the runner at first thinks he has to run? Do you not say "he's out!" so they all stop, or do you just let them make a mess out of it?

I am talking about HS level game or below.

[DG]

Originally posted by Tim C
I have NEVER, nor will I ever, say: "Batter's Out!"

T

I said it this past Sunday. Situation, bases loaded, no outs. Popup hit to edge of outfield grass behind SS. SS camps under, and I say "infield fly". Of course he drops the ball, and the runner on 3b scampers home as the ball hits the SS foot and gets away from him. I turn to 1b, point at the batter-runner who is standing on 1b and say "batter's out".

I don't know why we should avoid saying "batter's out" when he is. When there is a runner on 1B and less than 2 outs, and a pitch on a swinging strike hits the dirt, I always say "batter's out", or something similar (he's out).

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by DG

I said it this past Sunday. Situation, bases loaded, no outs. Popup hit to edge of outfield grass behind SS. SS camps under, and I say "infield fly". Of course he drops the ball, and the runner on 3b scampers home as the ball hits the SS foot and gets away from him. I turn to 1b, point at the batter-runner who is standing on 1b and say "batter's out".

I don't know why we should avoid saying "batter's out" when he is. When there is a runner on 1B and less than 2 outs, and a pitch on a swinging strike hits the dirt, I always say "batter's out", or something similar (he's out).

Precisely, and I was taught that the proper mechanic for the Infield Fly Rule was to say "Infield fly, the batter's out", or if near a foul line, "Infield fly, if fair", while pointing with the right index finger to the sky.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Tim C
I have NEVER, nor will I ever, say: "Batter's Out!"

T

I say this all the time when the batter is actually out. I do not say it when I am unsure of a catch or if I think the ball has hit the ground.

It works for me.

Peace

[Tim C]

"Tim, what mechanic do you recommend using when there are less than 2 outs, w/1B occupied, and the ball is in the dirt, and the batter mistakenly starts to run, and the catcher mistakenly starts to go after the batter, . . ."

------------

I do nothing. It is the responsability of both the offense and defense to know the rules, the situation, and the compliance therein.

If this happens in my HS game - - - it happens.

------------

"Precisely, and I was taught that the proper mechanic for the Infield Fly Rule was to say "Infield fly, the batter's out", . . . "

-----------

On an Infield Fly I say the following:

Either:

"Infield fly, infield fly!"

or

"Infield Fly, Infield fly IF fair!"

I would never, ever say: "Batter's Out!"

Of course I am the same guy that as BU I have never asked for help from the PU in 36 seasons.

[Edited by Tim C on Oct 26th, 2005 at 09:22 AM]

[Sal Giaco]

Tim,
I respectfully disagree. I think there are instances where it is ok (sometimes even preventive officiating) to say "the batter's out". In fact, if Eddings didn't have that horsesh!t strike 3 flat arm mechanic and just come out with the fist only, Pierzynski probably wouldn't have run to first. Take it one step further and say "that's a catch" while pumping the fist and I can almost guarantee he wouldn't have run to first. And if that doesn't do the trick, as soon as Pierzynski took off to first, I would have sold the sh!t out of the call by walking up the line and emphatically saying "that's a catch, batter's out, the batter is out!" while pumping my fist.

At umpire school, back in 2000, they still taught "Infield Fly, batter's out". I don't know if that has changed since then. Just my opinion

[Tim C]

Just for general information:

I have never said: "I was trained to say Infield fly, Infield Fly!" I simple stated that is what I say.

Whipping the Dead Horse yet one more time:

There are two things in a game I will NEVER do:

1) Say, "Batter's Out!"

2) And as a PU say, "NO, he didn't go!" (on a checked/unchecked swing)

Tee

Now I'll crawl back into my hole and allow all those who think MLB needs "instant replay", umpire huddles, and "getting the call right at all costs" take back over the "New Direction" of umpiring.

T

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by Tim C
Just for general information:

I have never said: "I was trained to say Infield fly, Infield Fly!" I simple stated that is what I say.

Whipping the Dead Horse yet one more time:

There are two things in a game I will NEVER do:

1) Say, "Batter's Out!"

2) And as a PU say, "NO, he didn't go!" (on a checked/unchecked swing)

Tee

Now I'll crawl back into my hole and allow all those who think MLB needs "instant replay", umpire huddles, and "getting the call right at all costs" take back over the "New Direction" of umpiring.

T

Certainly, saying "Infield Fly, Batter's Out" is not "New Direction" umpiring, in fact, I wouldn't know what "New Direction" is about, since I am "Old School" through and through.

I do know that in the early 1980's, the pro school's were teaching "Infield Fly, Batter's Out", and "Ball, NO, he didn't go!" as the standard mechanic. On the latter, my association adopted the call of "Ball" only, and ask for help if requested.

I know I'm not as good as you, Tim, because in my meager 19 years as an umpire, I have had to ask the PU for help on pulled foot/swipe tag. I can count the occasions on one hand, however.

Baseball needs instant replay like a fish needs a bicycle, and huddles should be for football. I have always prided myself on living and dying with my own call, as I was taught to get my own plays. When I was a plebe of an umpire, I once asked for help from a veteran, on a call that was all mine. He gruffly yelled, "NOT my call!", and I learned a valuable lesson about getting my calls myself!

Dead Horse Beaten Once Again

[Tim C]

Sorry to disagree with anything you said because I think we are twins when considering the need for accountability in umpiring and making your own call.

I ask simply that you read my words carefully:

I have stated for the last nine years on the internet that I have NEVER asked for help on a swipe tag/pulled foot at first base. I have never, however, said that I should not have asked.

I went to Professional Umpire school in 1982 and 1986 and NEVER (EVER) did they teach at school to say: "No, he didn't go!" It must have been on the day I missed class. :-}

Tee

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by Tim C
Sorry to disagree with anything you said because I think we are twins when considering the need for accountability in umpiring and making your own call.

I ask simply that you read my words carefully:

I have stated for the last nine years on the internet that I have NEVER asked for help on a swipe tag/pulled foot at first base. I have never, however, said that I should not have asked.

I went to Professional Umpire school in 1982 and 1986 and NEVER (EVER) did they teach at school to say: "No, he didn't go!" It must have been on the day I missed class. :-}

Tee

Tee-bone, you know that I never physically attended the pro school, but I was taught by graduates of both major schools. My #1 mentor supplied me with a mechanics manual, and he had written notes in the margin. One of the notes mentioned saying "Ball, NO, he didn't go!". He went to Brinkman's in 1980, so that's where I got that. Anyway, we never use it, we always just say "ball".

Horse Remains Dead, Film At 11:00