over rule or not

[Simply The Best]

No one on, one out. Batter swings at the pitch and the ball goes down, rolling fifteen feet or so to where the F5 (playing in) grabs it in fair territory. PU IMMEDIATELY signals fair and takes a step or two towards the ball. F5 makes the throw to F3. The batter is hopping up and down on one foot and the HC is declaring that the ball was foul, off the batter's foot while in the box. You see the batter's reaction and had watched the ball hit the his foot, or at least the best you could see from 100+ feet away. Your PU gave an adamant signal IMMEDIATELY. Do you kill the play? Do you wait for him to ask your help? Agree with him or give what you had?

Admittedly, a foul is a quick, fairly easy call for a BU to assist on. However, this play involves a PU who IMMEDIATELY points fair (yes, waiting for a touch or stoppage is the correct mechanic but not in play here). Do you interject?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If I see it, I kill it. If I don't kill it, I didn't see it (so don't come to me for help).

This is a call, like balks, infield fly, check swing, with joint responsibility. If either umpire sees it, get it.

Which is exactly my point. Any call where one official has a clear advantage in seeing the call, especially where his partner may be blocked, hindered or otherwise impeded in making the call, that official with the clearer review, who knows that his partner has made an incorrect call, has the ethical responsibility to inform his partner of the mistake. I don't care how he does this. Signals, T/O, spins on his head, he has to get the info to his partner.

If his partner refuses to correct, for whatever reason, then that is on his shoulders, his lack of integrity and his lack of responsibility as an arbiter.

You have done all you could.

Oh, except tell your assignor you won't call with that sleezeball ever again.

[MD Longhorn]

Refusing to "correct" your partner is absolutely not a lack of integrity. I totally get you if there's a RULES misinterpretation involved. But when we're talking about judgment calls (fair/foul... or in this case did or did not hit the batter) if I, from 100 feet away, THINK the player was hit by the ball, and partner behaves as you explain, I'm showing my integrity by not killing the play and assuming that my partner is doing this for a reason.

In fact, the fact that signalling fair BEFORE the ball stops is very much NOT the normal mechanic... I'm assuming that my partner doing so is SPECIFICALLY because he is positive in his call and has reason to believe I MIGHT kill this play - and is trying to keep me from doing so.

Like I said - I would definitely be discussing this play after the game, and in fact it's unusual enough that I MIGHT come in between innings - a rarity without reason, if for no other reason to find out what he saw.

STB ... let me ask this. Say a pitch is a good foot outside, but your partner calls it a strike. Are you going to stop play and go correct him?

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Refusing to "correct" your partner is absolutely not a lack of integrity.

Refusing to tell your partner he was wrong on a play call that can be corrected, and should be corrected, when you know he is most assuredly is. It is a lie and fraud by omission.

STB ... let me ask this. Say a pitch is a good foot outside, but your partner calls it a strike. Are you going to stop play and go correct him?

over rule or not
Balls and strikes are not play calls, did you not know that?

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

Refusing to tell your partner he was wrong on a play call that can be corrected, and should be corrected, when you know he is most assuredly is. It is a lie and fraud by omission.

Okie dokie...then, how about enlightening us poor uneducated folk with YOUR list of those calls that can be corrected without invitation by one's partner.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Okie dokie...then, how about enlightening us poor uneducated folk with YOUR list of those calls that can be corrected without invitation by one's partner.

over rule or not

[MrUmpire]

You're right, of course, UmpJM. It's just that it was kind of nostalgic to have InterestedUmp, Deej, Fitump56 and the rest of the gang back with us again.

Fortunately there's enough room for STB on the ignore list along with his other nom de plumes.

Hey Frick, say hello to Frack for me.

Buh Bye.

[UmpJM]

MrUmpire,

Personally, I feel more nostalgic for drumbumb, gruberted, and, yes, even cc6.

At least they were entertaining.

JM

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

No one on, one out. Batter swings at the pitch and the ball goes down, rolling fifteen feet or so to where the F5 (playing in) grabs it in fair territory. PU IMMEDIATELY signals fair and takes a step or two towards the ball. F5 makes the throw to F3. The batter is hopping up and down on one foot and the HC is declaring that the ball was foul, off the batter's foot while in the box. You see the batter's reaction and had watched the ball hit the his foot, or at least the best you could see from 100+ feet away. Your PU gave an adamant signal IMMEDIATELY. Do you kill the play? Do you wait for him to ask your help? Agree with him or give what you had?

OK I will play along.

For the record there is a procedure to call these plays. And as a BU if you see a batted ball hit the batter immediately, the procedure you should apply is to make a ruling that the ball is dead. Now it is up to the PU to ultimately decide what we are going to ultimately call. And if you have nothing, then you call nothing.

And that is the "procedure" I have pretty much followed my entire career and most trained umpires follow as well.

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

Admittedly, a foul is a quick, fairly easy call for a BU to assist on. However, this play involves a PU who IMMEDIATELY points fair (yes, waiting for a touch or stoppage is the correct mechanic but not in play here). Do you interject?

Which is exactly my point. Any call where one official has a clear advantage in seeing the call, especially where his partner may be blocked, hindered or otherwise impeded in making the call, that official with the clearer review, who knows that his partner has made an incorrect call, has the ethical responsibility to inform his partner of the mistake. I don't care how he does this. Signals, T/O, spins on his head, he has to get the info to his partner.

One can assume that the PU is making a call based where the ball became fair, whether the ball hit the batter. So the signal does not change the responsibility of the PU or the BU in this specific case. And when you try to make this into an ethical issue, it either shows you do not understand typical training or you are playing stupid.

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

If his partner refuses to correct, for whatever reason, then that is on his shoulders, his lack of integrity and his lack of responsibility as an arbiter.

You have done all you could.

Oh, except tell your assignor you won't call with that sleezeball ever again.

Again you are so wrong again. First you are using a situation that is widely has a procedure for any umpire on the field to call the play dead when a batted ball hits a batter and certainly immediately when this happens. That is actually the standard procedure to be followed. But you said "Get the call right forget the procedure." So that means that if we have a play at second base and the PU has an opinion they should correct the call to what they think just took place. That is what folks like me object to and feel that there is a way to correct a call. But if you’re correcting a call is if there was a tag, then I do not want to work with you ever again until you get better training. This is the play we are talking about when we say making a call 100 feet away. Just like we do not rule on a checked swing as a BU when the PU has either made a call or has not asked for an appeal. Then again something tells me this will not sink in to you either.

Peace