Intentional walk / hit batsman

[rbmartin]

Hypothetical (probably silly) situation (11-12 yr old OBR): 1 out, very fast runner on 2nd. Team decides to intentionally walk right handed batter. Trying to prevent r2 from stealing 3rd, after conferring with F2, pitcher pitches ball behind the batter in an attempt to create a much shorter throw to 3rd. F2 stays completely in the catchers box until ball release meeting the requirements of 8.05(L) and 4.03(A). The batter instinctly steps away from the plate upon seeing the pitch coming his direction, r2 breaks toward 3rd, , and the batter is hit by the pitch outside the batters box.
What do you call? I'm thinking: Dead ball, Batter out per 6.06 (C), Runner returns to 2nd.
Are there any circumstances where the runner could also be called out?
Is there any rule prohibiting the pitcher from throwing behind the batter as long as he clearly has no intent of hitting the batter?

[MikeStrybel]

Do you have 11-12 year olds with that kind of control and commitment to the coach's direction near you?

Are you content with penalizing the batter for trying to evade being hit by a pitch that is not in the strike zone?

[rbmartin]

Did the batter interfere with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base (6.06C)? No exceptions are given.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

The batter instinctly steps away from the plate upon seeing the pitch coming his direction,

HBP.

Oh -- and eject the pitcher for throwing at the batter.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Do you have 11-12 year olds with that kind of control and commitment to the coach's direction near you?

Few do but I have seen this taught by a number of coaches. Usually the same ones who adhere to the "crowd the plate" batting philosophy.

They are looking for one or all of several things.

1) Something to get in the face of the PU about. Intimidation, then belittling, since the OBR is gray on this, it makes for a great way to begin an episode with a PU.

2) An easy out.

3) Advantage on the throw but this one can be a double edged sword. As you are alluding, the pitch has to be fairly accurate to be cleanly caught and to have the throw shortened (F2-->F3). F2s momentum can either be disrupted or enhanced depending on F2s footwork and the location of the pitch, vertically and horizontally.

4) Surprise.

5) Look cool.

Are you content with penalizing the batter for trying to evade being hit by a pitch that is not in the strike zone?

The reason I never taught it was that I was concerned with the B's health. B's moving around especially out of the box in such an unusual pitch location, no telling how that is going to turn out when he's HB this P. Typically, B is going to be much more defenseless imo than a typical HBP in box.

Unless F1 throws a breaking ball then all bets are off.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

pitcher pitches ball behind the batter

Thet's flat out considered throwing at the batter in any shaving-level game. You'd have a bench-clearing brawl on your hands if it happened.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Thet's flat out considered throwing at the batter in any shaving-level game. You'd have a bench-clearing brawl on your hands if it happened.

With an R2? With F2 moving to catch the ball? So you have a F1 and/or F2 and/or HC ejection? R2 advances? R2 stays? HBP? Live or dead ball?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Simply The Best

With an R2? With F2 moving to catch the ball? So you have a F1 and/or F2 and/or HC ejection? R2 advances? R2 stays? HBP? Live or dead ball?

Pick one:

You're naive.
You're new at this
You're just being obnoxious.

[Simply The Best]

Let's carve your post down to the important factors.

Originally Posted by rbmartin

OBR;1 out, runner on 2nd. Rhanded batter; pitcher pitches ball behind the batter; F2 stays completely in the catchers box until ball release meeting the requirements of 8.05(L) and 4.03(A). The batter...steps away from the plate and is hit by the pitch outside the batters box.
What do you call? I'm thinking: Dead ball, Batter out per 6.06 (C), Runner returns to 2nd.

There is nothing that specifically covers this event in OBR including 6.06. So whaccha gonna do? Use J/R? RIM comments? Evans? Intuition? Crystal ball gazing? Other professional interpretations? Case book?

Here's what I have gone with consistently.

Dead ball. Given.

Batter. Out. Why? It is my interpretation of OBR, and the interpretation of professionals, that B cannot make any movement which impedes F2. This is an extension of the underlying philosophy of 6.06(c).

Runner returns to 2B Why? TOP, dead ball.

By and by, the argument that follows by the coach who is setting you up for this call (see my other post Intentional walk / hit batsman - Point #1) is the "show me the rule". Which the appropriate response is "there isn't one, we are going with my interp". Which usually brings out the P word "protest" which I conclude the discussion by putting my helmet on and doing my best Pet Detective impression "Allllllrighty then" and returning to the plate.

Are there any circumstances where the runner could also be called out?

As you have explained it, and my interpretation of how you have explained the event, no.

Is there any rule prohibiting the pitcher from throwing behind the batter as long as he clearly has no intent of hitting the batter?

No. He can throw it anywhere on God's Good Earth or Sky as he desires.

The consequences, ah the consequences though.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

Did the batter interfere with the catcher’s fielding

No because technically F2 is not fielding...

or throwing

this either...

by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base (6.06C)? No exceptions are given.

the "play at home base" is widely interpreted to mean on an advancing runner if there is no bat-ball contact.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Thet's flat out considered throwing at the batter in any shaving-level game.

Considering the OP was speaking about 11-12 yoa...

But let's go with your comment anyway. What action or actions would you now take on these shavers? Cite rules please.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

Did the batter interfere with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base (6.06C)? No exceptions are given.

The rule does not apply to a pitched ball, for which batter interference is not defined. The pitched ball is, after all, for the batter to hit.

Or: the catcher is not fielding when he catches a pitch, so again this rule does not apply.

Your situation is a HBP, as Bob notes. If the coach complains, tell him to pitch a walk outside where he's much less likely to hit the batter.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by rbmartin

Did the batter interfere with the catcher’s fielding or throwing by stepping out of the batter’s box or making any other movement that hinders the catcher’s play at home base (6.06C)? No exceptions are given.

Uhmmm, you might want to check the OP again. The batter moved out of the way of the pitch that was coming at him. Unfortunately, the pitch continued in the batter's direction.

Rules are cut and dry, with that I will agree. Application of a rule requires experience, intelligence and knowledge of the basics of the game being officiated. Blind rule applications do not work - that is why computers will never replace officials.

[Simply The Best]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

rbmartin, Uhmmm, you might want to check the OP again.

rbmartin is the OP, ozzy

[UmpJM]

rbmartin,

Originally Posted by rbmartin

... The batter instinctly steps away from the plate upon seeing the pitch coming his direction, r2 breaks toward 3rd, , and the batter is hit by the pitch outside the batters box.
What do you call? I'm thinking: Dead ball, Batter out per 6.06 (C), Runner returns to 2nd.

You call, "TIME! You (BR), 1st base. You (R2), back to second."

...Are there any circumstances where the runner could also be called out?

Not in this sitch.

JM