What's the call ?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ODJ

If R2 heads for 3rd, and changing his mind, returns to 2nd.
BR heads for 2nd after seeing R2 running for 3rd. BR looks to RF to locate ball, cruises into 2nd to find R2 there.

Would you have R2 out?

Unless forced, the base belongs to the lead runner. So, I don't see anyway to have R2 out in this play (given that he's not tagged until he's back at second). Either BR is out, or BR is at second and R2 is advanced to third.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ODJ

If R2 heads for 3rd, and changing his mind, returns to 2nd.
BR heads for 2nd after seeing R2 running for 3rd. BR looks to RF to locate ball, cruises into 2nd to find R2 there.

Would you have R2 out?

Nobody's out until somebody's tagged. If they're both on the base and both are tagged, then BR is out, since the base belongs to R2 until he's forced to advance (as in a force play -- BR's presence by itself does not force R2 to advance).

[LilLeaguer]

So, in two man mechanics, do we see this?

During the play
Plate Umpire: Indicates obstruction, does not call time.

On the tag of B/R:
Field Umpire: Out signal

Seeing action has stopped:
Plate Umpire: Time! Obstruction at first base, you, second base!

Field Umpire: On the tag, you're out!

Or should the Plate Umpire make just eat the earlier acknowledgement of obstruction?

[MrUmpire]

Too much went on in front of too many witnesses for BU to ignore his call.

Assuming that all this occured in a day game, and guessing that at least one coach is going to want an explanation:

After play has ended BU and PU get together and discuss what they have and get on the same page. As they break up they announce what they have: obstruction, batter/runner protected to the touch of second, batter/runner out on the tag - two runners on same base - and get ready to eject somebody.

[johnnyg08]

I thought we were only protecting him to 1B? Maybe we weren't unanimous on that.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I thought we were only protecting him to 1B? Maybe we weren't unanimous on that.

Well, we do agree that B/R is liable to be tagged out at 2B.

I may have split the responsibilities too fine. In a normal delayed obstruction, Plate Umpire can place the obstructed B/R after calling time. In this case, he may not know why R2 is still on 2B, but he should be able to see him there.

But, taking MrUmpire's suggestion, perhaps the umpires should huddle before "placing the runners." (Of course, after that huddle, B/R will still be called out.)

I just hate to have a huddle after calling obstruction but before resolving the call. But, given this 3rd world play, perhaps that is unavoidable. As is the ensuing discussion with the offensive manager.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I thought we were only protecting him to 1B? Maybe we weren't unanimous on that.

Does it matter? He's out at second.

[johnnyg08]

You're right, it doesn't...unless there's a protest, you might want to explain yourself correctly. But I agree with you. When I initially replied on this, I protected him to 2B, then called him out. But after talking about it w/ others, I changed my thought to only protect to 1B...the benefits of being able to change your mind on a forum, not a field.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

Well, we do agree that B/R is liable to be tagged out at 2B.

I may have split the responsibilities too fine. In a normal delayed obstruction, Plate Umpire can place the obstructed B/R after calling time. In this case, he may not know why R2 is still on 2B, but he should be able to see him there.

But, taking MrUmpire's suggestion, perhaps the umpires should huddle before "placing the runners." (Of course, after that huddle, B/R will still be called out.)

I just hate to have a huddle after calling obstruction but before resolving the call. But, given this 3rd world play, perhaps that is unavoidable. As is the ensuing discussion with the offensive manager.

Huddles aren't always bad. It's a brave new world out there.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Huddles aren't always bad. It's a brave new world out there.

OK. Huddling is a basic Little League mechanic that I have mastered. The question is when to use it.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

OK. Huddling is a basic Little League mechanic that I have mastered. The question is when to use it.

I use it to run out the clock when we're leading with less than 2 minutes to play...

Sorry wrong forum

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by LilLeaguer

So, in two man mechanics, do we see this?

During the play
Plate Umpire: Indicates obstruction, does not call time.

On the tag of B/R:
Field Umpire: Out signal

Seeing action has stopped:
Plate Umpire: Time! Obstruction at first base, you, second base!

Field Umpire: On the tag, you're out!

Or should the Plate Umpire make just eat the earlier acknowledgement of obstruction?

This is not the Plate umpires call...and should not call OBS..

[JJ]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Does it matter? He's out at second.

Unless you're protecting him to second - then the runner on second is "forced" to go to third. And we start this discussion all over again

JJ

[UmpJM]

I'm a little late to this party, but, as the OP is presented, I've got the BR out at 2B when both he and the R2 are tagged while they are both standing on 2B.

The remedy for "Type B" obstruction in OBR is to "nullify the act of obstruction".

So, what would have (likely) happened if the BR had NOT been obstructed?

He would have reached 2B a couple of steps sooner and been tagged while touching a base that offered him no protection (since it was legally occupied by the R2).

Since the obstruction had no bearing on the R2 remaining on 2B, the BR is still out, despite the obstruction.

JM

[ODJ]

O.P. -

BR was obstructed AFTER obtaining 1st base. The minimum penalty is BR placed one base beyond, putting him at 2nd. R2 goes to 3rd.

Punish the offender - the defense. By calling BR out, where's the penalty?

On a philosophical note: Dave Yeast, former NCAA Coordinator, told an NCAA meeting in '04 to not have an "opinion" of how far you will protect the obstructed runner. Let the play give you the information and base your judgement on the results of the play. His contention was/is that umpires have snap opinions as to how far the runner should advance before the play ends.

Example:
The fastest batter-runner in the state hits a shot to right field, is obstructed after touching first, and is tagged out at 3rd by a whisker. Call?

Majority of umpires respond with: "Out. He shouldn't have gone past 2nd."

What if, on this play the fastest batter-runner is safe at 3rd. Would you call time, and say to the coach - "Coach, your runner is safe at third, but in my opinion he shouldn't have gone past second, so I'm going to put him back at 2nd base." I would hope no one ever says such a thing.

In the former example, the umpire created an opinion and determined what the result of the "should" be without waiting for the result of the play.

Example:
If the slowest batter in the state hits the same shot to right field, is again obstructed after 1st base, and is tagged out halfway between 2nd and 3rd.
Call?
I have an out. The obstruction (an ordinary bump) did not cause such a hinderance as to be out by 40 feet.

Point is to let the play happen, and then render a decision. We're told, for timing's sake, to wait and take our time, but with instances of obstruction, we are far to quick to judge.