The batter attempts to bunt with 2 strikes but POPS it up

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

1) You said none of the literature defines foul then you quote the rule that defines it.

Reminds me of an ole song: here we go roun in circles, see the fly way up in the skyyyy.. I made that part up.

SLAS: NO, I clearly quoted the definition of a "FOUL BALL", as I stated, there is no such beast as "foul". Where I think you and I are on a disconnect is; I use the "definitions" verbatim and firmly believe everybody should.
You would say; a ball hit over foul territory is a foul ball no matter what happens to it.
I say a ball over foul territory that is touched, is a foul ball and is dead and one that is caught over foul territory is a "caught fly ball".

2) You said fair/foul can be dependent on caught or not - but you quoted the rule which makes no mention of the location of the ball.

SLAS: No I clearly said a "foul ball" AND I quoted "a catch", because it is NOT dependent on fair or foul, that's what I was trying to get across. A fly ball that is caught is never foul, or at least there is no worth in noting it either way, so why bother? Or should we refer to the scorekeepers, maybe they care? Oh wait, except; U-Trip SP SB: With one strike if the batter hits a second foul ball, the ball is dead and no runners may advance, except at the Majors Division. Nat. Interp.


Lets look at the relevant part:

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball . . . that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

SLAS: Okay.

Was the ball over foul ground - yes.
SLAS: WE are clearly in total agreement here, all right!!

Did it touch a player while there? - Yes

SLAS: UH-OH! Here we will disconnect again. NO the ball was not "touched" by a player, it was caught by a player. Hence why, in my original post I tried to clarify that, touch and catch are only used in the same sentence when; considering the legality of a runner re-tagging on a ball which is eventually caught. We must agree, there is a difference between touch and catch? Is a re-tagging runner allowed to leave on a touch or must he wait for the catch, no need to answer, I know we agree on that. If you let that sink in for just a moment, you must agree, there is a difference between the two.
If you don't re-read "a catch" and compare it to the following;
OBR: TOUCH. To touch a player or umpire is to touch any part of his body, his clothing or his equipment. Touch is not, anyway, anywho, related to, or in the same zip code as "a catch".

It's foul.

SLAS: No, it's a caught fly ball, and remains live. I didn't, nor will I go back through this thread and count for you, but all but one poster here by now, agrees; the OP is, "a caught fly ball" that remains in play and will leave the O in jeopardy, because the D may still make a play on them.

Caught/Not Caught is completely independent of fair/foul.
SLAS: Hey were agreeing a lot more.

Live/dead on a foul ball IS dependent on caught/not caught, but first you have to know 1) was it fair or foul and 2) was it caught or not.

SLAS: Dang another disconnect. Live/dead is never dependent of anything on a foul ball, a foul ball by definition and rule is always "dead". Hence why it " a foul ball" can never be caught.

A fly ball over foul territory with a defender under it is neither fair nor foul. The fact that if it were to fall or be touched while over foul territory would make it foul, it is not until, after that "something" happens. If the ball is caught over foul territory it's still in play, why, because it did not become a foul ball.

[tiger49]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

SLAS: Dang another disconnect. Live/dead is never dependent of anything on a foul ball, a foul ball by definition and rule is always "dead". Hence why it " a foul ball" can never be caught.

A fly ball over foul territory with a defender under it is neither fair nor foul. The fact that if it were to fall or be touched while over foul territory would make it foul, it is not until, after that "something" happens. If the ball is caught over foul territory it's still in play, why, because it did not become a foul ball.

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—

e) A foul ball is not caught, in which case runners return to their bases. The umpire-inchief shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;

Live/dead is always dependent on one thing on a foul ball. Wither it was caught or uncaught. Uncaught, ball is dead. Caught the ball remains live.

The rulebook is meant to be read, not for you to just look at the nice little diagrams.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

SLAS: Dang another disconnect. Live/dead is never dependent of anything on a foul ball, a foul ball by definition and rule is always "dead". Hence why it " a foul ball" can never be caught.

You're kidding - right? Read these:

The 2.00 definition of Foul Ball which you posted above.

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—
(e) A foul ball is not caught, in which case runners return to their bases. This is necessary because "caught" is the other possible outcome

6.05 A batter is out when—
(a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder;

Rule 6.05(a) Comment: A fielder may reach into, but not step into, a dugout to make a catch, and if he holds the ball, the catch shall be allowed. A fielder, in order to make a catch on a foul ball nearing a dugout or other out-of-play area (such as the stands), must have one or both feet on or over the playing surface (including the lip of the dugout) and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or in any other out-of-play area. Ball is in play, unless the fielder, after making a legal catch, falls into a dugout or other out-of-play area, in which case the ball is dead.


7.08 Any runner is out when—
(d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder.

10.08 SACRIFICES
The official scorer shall:
(d) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a ball in flight handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield in fair or foul territory that
(1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or
(2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer’s judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

You're kidding - right? Read these:

The 2.00 definition of Foul Ball which you posted above.

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when—
(e) A foul ball is not caught, in which case runners return to their bases. This is necessary because "caught" is the other possible outcome

6.05 A batter is out when—
(a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder;

Rule 6.05(a) Comment: A fielder may reach into, but not step into, a dugout to make a catch, and if he holds the ball, the catch shall be allowed. A fielder, in order to make a catch on a foul ball nearing a dugout or other out-of-play area (such as the stands), must have one or both feet on or over the playing surface (including the lip of the dugout) and neither foot on the ground inside the dugout or in any other out-of-play area. Ball is in play, unless the fielder, after making a legal catch, falls into a dugout or other out-of-play area, in which case the ball is dead.


7.08 Any runner is out when—
(d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder.

10.08 SACRIFICES
The official scorer shall:
(d) Score a sacrifice fly when, before two are out, the batter hits a ball in flight handled by an outfielder or an infielder running in the outfield in fair or foul territory that
(1) is caught, and a runner scores after the catch, or
(2) is dropped, and a runner scores, if in the scorer’s judgment the runner could have scored after the catch had the fly been caught.

Rich is correct. This is why you point fair or foul on a caught fly ball near the line. You are signaling either a fair fly out or foul fly out.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Rich is correct. This is why you point fair or foul on a caught fly ball near the line. You are signaling either a fair fly out or foul fly out.

Plus, the ball is fair or foul as soon as it's touched. It doesn't become caught until some time later (it might be just an instant later).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Plus, the ball is fair or foul as soon as it's touched. It doesn't become caught until some time later (it might be just an instant later).

Exactly. The reason we point fair when it's touched is the player could fall or take a few more steps and run into a fence that separates the player from the ball and we'd have no catch with the player now 10 feet or more in foul ground. Pretty hard to sell a fair ball at this point. Point the ball fair on the touch and follow the rest of the play until we either have a catch or no catch.

[jkumpire]

Gentlemen,

Four pages on this?

Has umpiring and rules knowledge gotten so bad in our country that fundamentals 1st year guys should know before they start umpiring disappeared?

I am concerned.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Gentlemen,

Four pages on this?

Has umpiring and rules knowledge gotten so bad in our country that fundamentals 1st year guys should know before they start umpiring disappeared?

I am concerned.

No need for concern. The number of informed umpires in this thread is far larger than the number of the uninformed and stubborn.

On any board and in any association, there's always one.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Gentlemen,

Four pages on this?

Has umpiring and rules knowledge gotten so bad in our country that fundamentals 1st year guys should know before they start umpiring disappeared?

I am concerned.

Yeah...4 pages to discuss the differentiation in 'touch' and 'catch' on a caught pop up. I've been a little concerned for 2 or three pages now.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Exactly. The reason we point fair when it's touched is the player could fall or take a few more steps and run into a fence that separates the player from the ball and we'd have no catch with the player now 10 feet or more in foul ground. Pretty hard to sell a fair ball at this point. Point the ball fair on the touch and follow the rest of the play until we either have a catch or no catch.

Yea yea, that too.