The batter attempts to bunt with 2 strikes but POPS it up

[yawetag]

This is a situation where F2 screwed up by catching the ball. Granted, in most situations, no runner will advance. However, by letting the ball drop foul, the ball's dead and the runners can't advance.

[MikeStrybel]

I have a lote/hate relationship with these questions. I enjoy discussing them but hate seeing them on tests. I appreciate the thoughts but want to ask a couple things:
1) The batted ball is not foul until it is touched while on or over foul terrirtory. By definition, it is a dead ball at the time that happens, right?

2) Yes, I know that a caught fly ball, even foul, is live. But does the bunt attempt supersede it?

2) If that is the case, it is a TOP play, right?

I have pored over J/R and can't find a definitive ruling. Anyone have the EXACT ruling to substantiate our call here?

My test has already been submitted and I passed. My questions are for discussion and improvement only. Thanks again.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I have a lote/hate relationship with these questions. I enjoy discussing them but hate seeing them on tests. I appreciate the thoughts but want to ask a couple things:
1) The batted ball is not foul until it is touched while on or over foul terrirtory. By definition, it is a dead ball at the time that happens, right?

Read tehe "when a ball becomes dead" section (I'm without my books, so that might not be the correct title). Does it say the ball is dead on a foul, or on an UNCAUGHT foul?

[yawetag]

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when— (e) A foul ball is not caught; runners return. The umpire shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases;

6.05 A batter is out when— (a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder;
Comment: Ball is in play, unless the fielder, after making a legal catch, falls into a dugout or other out-of-play area, in which case the ball is dead.

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Read tehe "when a ball becomes dead" section (I'm without my books, so that might not be the correct title). Does it say the ball is dead on a foul, or on an UNCAUGHT foul?

Bob,
A foul is not foul until touched or it comes to a stop on foul ground. As this ball was touched and secured, as the result of an attempted bunt with two strikes, by rule it should be immediately dead. Obviously we have an issue of whether the foul third strike supersedes a foul catch. So far I haven't seen anything that I can use to call this a live ball. I hate these plays but know that it wouldn't be in there unless it happened to one of us and will again. Thanks.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by Jaksa/Roder

A batter is out when
(3) his third strike is uncaught because it was bunted foul,

Originally Posted by Jim Evans Annotated

5.09(d) Professional Interpretation #1: A ball that is bunted foul on 3rd strike may be caught for an out and the ball remains alive and in play. If it is not caught in flight, the ball is dead and all runners return in accordance with 5.09(d).

What else do you want?

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by yawetag

What else do you want?

Andrew,
Thank you. I saw the J/R reference but it does not provide a ruling. The Jim Evans book is outstanding but not a rule book. I would love to see an NCAA umpire try to show that to a coach.

This is one of those wierd plays that makes me hate umpiring but love the game. I really appreciate the effort to look this up. The NCAA rulings come out in a few days. It looks like I got it wrong but that won't be the first or last time. Have a good season.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I would love to see an NCAA umpire try to show that to a coach.

NCAA 6-2a. The ball becomes dead and base runners return when A foul is hit that is not caught. Runners return ...

NCAA 8-6.a A runner shall be called out on specifi appeals that are made when:
(1) The base runer does not retouch the base before a fielder tags the runner or the base after a fair or foul fly ball i stouched in making a legal catch.

Can't get any clearer.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

I would love to see an NCAA umpire try to show that to a coach.

I would hope an NCAA umpire doesn't show ANYTHING to a coach. If a coach disagrees with your call, he can follow the proper protest procedures.

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Bob,
A foul is not foul until touched or it comes to a stop on foul ground. As this ball was touched and secured, as the result of an attempted bunt with two strikes, by rule it should be immediately dead. Obviously we have an issue of whether the foul third strike supersedes a foul catch. So far I haven't seen anything that I can use to call this a live ball. I hate these plays but know that it wouldn't be in there unless it happened to one of us and will again. Thanks.

"Obviously we have an issue of whether the foul third strike supersedes a foul catch."

No, "we" don't. One of us is confusing "touched" with caught, they are not the same.

A ball that is in flight off the bat that is "caught" can never be foul.
It's a caught fly ball and caught fly balls are live.

A ball that was foul, can not be caught, because it either hit (beyond 1B-3B), settled, was touched (read booted), or hit something over foul territory.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

"Obviously we have an issue of whether the foul third strike supersedes a foul catch."

No, "we" don't. One of us is confusing "touched" with caught, they are not the same.

A ball that is in flight off the bat that is "caught" can never be foul.
It's a caught fly ball and caught fly balls are live.

A ball that was foul, can not be caught, because it either hit (beyond 1B-3B), settled, was touched (read booted), or hit something over foul territory.

My apologies for including you.

For all otherss, I am seeking an official rule book reference for this play.

It is impossible to separate touch and catch on this play. The ball was not bobbled (nor booted) and no mention of an improper release occured. The second the player touched it, it was caught. The ensuing play, as described indicates as much.

Anyone else seen an umpire watch a batted ball get caught in foul territory, signal catch and then point foul? Why indicate the place of catch if a caught fly ball is just a caught fly ball?

Thank you.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Anyone else seen an umpire watch a batted ball get caught in foul territory, signal catch and then point foul?

If I did, I'd laugh my *** off. You signal fair/foul, then catch/no catch.

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

A ball that is in flight off the bat that is "caught" can never be foul.

Try again.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

"A ball that is in flight off the bat that is "caught" can never be foul.

A ball that was foul, can not be caught, because it either hit (beyond 1B-3B), settled, was touched (read booted), or hit something over foul territory.

Absolutely, positively, incorrect. The definition of foul is independent of whether or not it was caught. That's why the dead ball rule says a ball is dead if a foul ball is not caught. It also covers why a caught foul ball is live. It's because a foul can be either caught or not.

[ManInBlue]

This really isn't as complicated as you are trying to make it. There is no need to separate the touch and the catch. He popped it up, it was caught, period.

If he popped it up and F2 attempted to catch the ball, standing 3' in foul territory but bobbled it and the ball fell to the ground in fair territory...we have a touch in or over foul territory and thus a dead ball, foul (then we talk about the count, etc) - and the batter is out because his bunt attempt on the 3rd strike was bunted foul.

Your situation is just a catch, that's all. Forget the 3rd strike, forget the bunt attempt. He popped up to F2 - he's out because F2 CAUGHT THE BALL.

You won't have a coach try to argue the difference in touch and catch in this situation. It's a caught fly ball, the ball is live by definition.

[soundedlikeastrike]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Absolutely, positively, incorrect. The definition of foul is independent of whether or not it was caught. That's why the dead ball rule says a ball is dead if a foul ball is not caught. It also covers why a caught foul ball is live. It's because a foul can be either caught or not.

The definition of "foul" okay, I see your angle. however none of my OBR based literature offers a definition of FOUL. so don't know where you going with that?

However the OP and my statements concern a "foul ball".

The definition of "foul ball" can very well be dependent on whether caught or not. In the OP as I see the intent, is 100% "dependent" on whether caught or not.

OBR Definition:
A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that, while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

The definition of a catch however, has no dependence on fair or foul.

OBR Definition:
A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession.