Running Start behind Third

[cookie]

I had always thought that an R3 who established a running start behind 3rd base during a tag up would be called out in a similar manner as a runner receiving a coach's assist, or a following runner passing preceding runner, etc. But I just learned that in OBR, it's an appeal call (so an umpire should remain silent until the defense makes a proper appeal of R3's running start). And this is written explicitly in the OBR rule book.

Is this also true for FED? I see the "running start" violation in the list of "Runner is out" actions that includes coach's assist, passing a runner, etc. in the Fed Rule Book (8-4-2-O). Also Case Book 8.4.2.M says "A runner is called out at the moment he passes a preceding runner, but the ball remains live. Acts such as attempts of a runner to profit by running too far from the baseline to avoid a tag, or outside the three-foot lane while advancing to first, or running the bases in reverse, or otherwise making a travesty of the game may not be appealed. The umpire calls the runner out without waiting for the defensive player to call attention to the act." I always thought that "running start" would be included in such acts. Can someone point to me in the FED Rule or CASE Books where it is explicitly stated that running start is an "appeal play?" I can't find it in either...

[yawetag]

8-4-2o: Any runner is out when he: (o) positions himself behind a base to get a running start

8-2-6a lists the types of appeals, and "running start" isn't one of them. 8-4-2q mentions runners being out on an appeal (and lists the types as well), and they only happen when "the defense initiates a proper and successful appeal." There's no such clause on 8-4-2o, so it leads me to believe the runner would be out without an appeal.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by yawetag

There's no such clause on 8-4-2o, so it leads me to believe the runner would be out without an appeal.

Your belief, and reasoning are correct (assuming you have the right references -- I didn't check those).

[BretMan]

According to the Baseball Rule Differences (BRD)...in FED call the out immediately and the ball remains live. For NCAA and OBR, the runner is out only if appealed by the defense.

I assume that the appeal would need to take the same form as any other appeal of a runner leaving early/not tagging up on a caught fly ball.

Chalk this one up as a difference that I had no idea was a difference- so I guess that I learned something today. Not like it's something I've ever had to call, or likely will ever have to, in one of my games. But if it happens, I'll be ready!

[greymule]

In appeals, the OBR book speaks of tagging the runner or the base "missed or left too soon." It doesn't include "or at which the runner got a running start." (Of course, the "appeal" of BOO doesn't require a tag, either.)

However, that could be simply an oversight, and the BRD is carefully compiled. It's hard to believe that a running start has to be appealed, though.

I've wondered whether it's still a violation if the runner backs up behind the base to get a running start but then remains at the base (or runs partway to the next base and then retreats)?

Similarly, I was once called out when I tagged up on 3B on a long fly, and the 3B coach whacked my rear at the moment the outfielder caught the ball. Would I still have been out if I hadn't run home?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by greymule

In appeals, the OBR book speaks of tagging the runner or the base "missed or left too soon." It doesn't include "or at which the runner got a running start." (Of course, the "appeal" of BOO doesn't require a tag, either.)

I don't have my baseball books with me, but I'm 95%certain that it is mentioned, at least in some comment or note.

[greymule]

The "comment" does equate taking a "flying start" with failure to retouch:

7.10 Any runner shall be called out on appeal when—

(a) After a fly ball us caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;

Rule 7.10(a) Comment: "Retouch," in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base.

[So what if the runner took a flying start, touched 3B, ran a few steps, then retreated, retouched 3B, and proceeded to home plate? By rule, he did retouch, unless his having taken a flying start somehow disqualifies him from later tagging up on the play.]

I never thought of it this way, but it's also an appeal if the runner overruns 1B and fails to return at once. I always assumed the ump could just call the runner out for dawdling, but apparently the defense has to call it to the ump's attention.

[UmpTTS43]

This "flying start" concept only applies when it is used as a way to tag and advance on a caught fly ball. If the runner uses a "flying start" but does not advance to the next base and returns to his original base, there is no infraction and this cannot be appealed. If the runner started with a "flying start", advanced a bit, returned and retagged, this would be legal and he would not be subject to be called out on appeal.

As far as the coach swatting you on the butt at the time the fly ball was caught, or on first touch, this is coach assist and the runner is to be called out regardless if the runner advanced or not.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

This "flying start" concept only applies when it is used as a way to tag and advance on a caught fly ball. If the runner uses a "flying start" but does not advance to the next base and returns to his original base, there is no infraction and this cannot be appealed. If the runner started with a "flying start", advanced a bit, returned and retagged, this would be legal and he would not be subject to be called out on appeal.

As far as the coach swatting you on the butt at the time the fly ball was caught, or on first touch, this is coach assist and the runner is to be called out regardless if the runner advanced or not.

I agree with you for OBR. Since it's an appealable offense, the baserunner has corrected the error before the appeal.

Under FED, I'd get the out either way.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with you for OBR. Since it's an appealable offense, the baserunner has corrected the error before the appeal.

Under FED, I'd get the out either way.

I agree.

[DG]

Proof that it is winter, because we discuss third world situations that few, if any, will need to rule on.

[cookie]

I brought up this situation because recently several umpires and myself watched the Jim Evans Diamond Challenge DVD - a selection of 25 plays in which you make the call from a multiple choice listing (OBR based). I missed this one not realizing that it is an appealable violation...

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by greymule

In appeals, the OBR book speaks of tagging the runner or the base "missed or left too soon." It doesn't include "or at which the runner got a running start." (Of course, the "appeal" of BOO doesn't require a tag, either.)

However, that could be simply an oversight, and the BRD is carefully compiled. It's hard to believe that a running start has to be appealed, though.

I've wondered whether it's still a violation if the runner backs up behind the base to get a running start but then remains at the base (or runs partway to the next base and then retreats)?

Similarly, I was once called out when I tagged up on 3B on a long fly, and the 3B coach whacked my rear at the moment the outfielder caught the ball. Would I still have been out if I hadn't run home?

read 7.10 (a) a.r. you will find the answer you seek.