Infield Fly Fiasco

[Whowefoolin]

Hey T-Ball,

I must agree with Downtown. It is relevant where infielders are. If you don't agree, then what are you reading?

As far as Seattle and Idaho go, I now umpire in SoCal and have umpired in Washington (Olympia) and Idaho (Boise) and the game is the same there as anywhere.

The only thing that should give trouble for an IFF is the foul/fair, and the heighth. Everything else is clearly stated...ordinary effort.

Example...the shift is on. Third base is playing shortstop, shortstop is playing second, etc...

Ball his as a pop-up right smack down the third base line on the dirt cut-out. No one home T...what's your call? Now sell that puppy.

Good job Downtown, you were professional and clear. Some of these LL umps just try to get in two-cents every now and again.

P.S. Maybe the sound is butt-smacking from the knees?

[spots101]

Wow, one minute this thread has 4 replies and the next minute it's 2 pages long! I have to be honest with you Tony and Whowefoolin that if I had to call THIS play over again I definitely would have called the IF. While pondering this situation on the way home that day my gut told me that I had made the wrong call. The reason was because of the triple play. I KNOW why there is an IF rule. It's to protect the runners from a DP or god forbid a triple play. Any umpire would know that. I just got hooked on the "with ordinary effort" thing. Why, I honestly don't know. Haven't you ever done something and then just wondered why you did it. Ahh, the beauty of hindsight. I felt so bad about the call that I called the coach to apologize for my blunder. That's just me though and I felt a lot better about it afterwards.

Maybe things would have been different if this were a high school or college game but I doubt it. This was a Pony level game. The bottom line is that I knew even before posting this thread that I screwed up. I was just hoping that someone else would learn from my mistake. I do appreciate the support though.

BTW, the shoulder thing I referred to was when let's say the SS goes out on the grass to catch a potential IF a general rule to determine ordinary effort is to see whether his shoulders are square to you or if he is still running out to catch the ball. In other words, is he facing you as he makes the catch (shoulders square to you) or are his shoulders turned as he is running out to make the catch. If they are square to you then THAT'S "ordinary effort" meaning he's camped out under the ball, a "can of corn" so to speak. The problem is that you don't have much time to make that decision.

[GarthB]

God help me, I'm going to borrow a page from His Holiness.

If a fly ball is hit over the infield grass with runners at first and second or first, second and third with less than two outs, I'm going to call the IFR. Any situation you can come up with that alleges that SOME infielder cannot catch that fly with ordinary effort is bull, or a third world scenario that is not going to happen in the real world.

I don't care if every infielder is lined up on the first base line and the fly goes to the third base line. There is a fielder there that can make that catch with ordinary effort. Does it matter if he DOES make the catch? By rule, no.

Or, take "youbefoolin's" example:

Example...the shift is on. Third base is playing shortstop, shortstop is playing second, etc...

Ball his as a pop-up right smack down the third base line on the dirt cut-out. No one home T...what's your call? Now sell that puppy.

Let's add, 4A varsity game. My call? "Infield fly, batter is out."

Sell it? No need. Coaches are smart enough to know reality. But just in case one has read the stranger posts in this thread: "Hey Blue, there wasn't any fielder at third."

"Coach, just because he decided not to walk the thirty feet from short to get under the ball is no reason that it couldn't have been done under ordinary effort, you know it, I know it, he knows it."

End of discussion.

But again, in the real world, I don't know a coach who would embarrass himself with such a complaint.

Look for boogers all you want. Quote the black and white of the OBR all you want. Experienced umpires who truly do higher level games are going to call the IFR as I described.

Now then, those who work games with "players who don't shave above the armpits" can do whatever they want. Umpires who work the big dog games and those who hope to become big dogs will call the IFR.

Hey Tee, how's my impersonation of Peter?

HHH simulation: [OFF]



[Edited by GarthB on Oct 18th, 2002 at 03:57 PM]

[Rich]

I thought it was a good impression.

It is also absolutely a spot on answer.

We are protecting baserunners with the IFR. If there is any doubt on a ball, better to call it an IF than to watch an undeserved double- or triple-play unfold in front of you.

A popup over the infield grass in an IF situation is ALWAYS an infield fly. It may not say that specifically in the book, but in reality is the way it should be (is) called.

Rich

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
I thought it was a good impression.

It is also absolutely a spot on answer.

We are protecting baserunners with the IFR. If there is any doubt on a ball, better to call it an IF than to watch an undeserved double- or triple-play unfold in front of you.

A popup over the infield grass in an IF situation is ALWAYS an infield fly. It may not say that specifically in the book, but in reality is the way it should be (is) called.

Rich

Rich: Not to pat you on the butt, but (pun intended) what is this "spot on" nonsense? Are you trying to sound like Warren?

Why not just say that Garth nailed the call?
Garth's hearth runneth over.
GB's idee was ros-ee.

To those of you who are claiming not to be in the friendly, inner circle. Allow me to give you a piece of advice.

In any game where the players date with nefarious intentions in mind:

Runners on first and second
Bases loaded
0 out
1 out

A batted ball reaching an appreciable height that will fall on the infield grass

IS AN INFIELD FLY!

Who disagrees?

[Rog]

Who disagrees?

Well now - - - I can think of a few coaches; but, I won't post their names.

In fact in a not to distant game, R1 & R2 with no outs, batter hits a pop-up over the umpire "C" position, everyone looked at each other guessing that the other guy would take it - no one did!!! I bang out the batter, having called the "IF - if fair, nice and loud. Then tossed the manager, also nice and loud, after he gave his "unabridged" opinion of my call.....

[Whowefoolin]

Carl, CC, C2, whatever all your butt-slapping buddies call you in the inner circle, I disagree.

It is not always an infield fly with the situation you suggested.

Do not patronize, do not be all-inclusive, just try to learn the game.

Without the internet a couple of years ago...who were you? So with that in mind, everyone who is taking all these "big-timers" who just sit around and post all the time, please read the rule books.

There are only two. Not complicated. Don't get caught up in someone trying to sell you "their" rule book. Fed or OBR. That is all you need. Study it, live it.

Good try Carl. Now explain to everyone how you are messing up their infield fly calls.

And what is up with the big words? Do you use that on the diamond? Good luck!

[GarthB]

"Youbefoolin" scrawled:

Carl, CC, C2, whatever all your butt-slapping buddies call you in the inner circle, I disagree.

We usually call him Cantankerous Carl. It used to be just Carl, but ever since he realized that some people just don't want to learn, he's gotten a little cranky.

It is not always an infield fly with the situation you suggested.

To normal umpires who understand the game, yes, it is.

Do not patronize, do not be all-inclusive, just try to learn the game.

Learn the game? LEARN THE GAME? LEARN THE GAME???
Do you have any inkling as to how stupid that statement is?

Without the internet a couple of years ago...who were you? So with that in mind, everyone who is taking all these "big-timers" who just sit around and post all the time, please read the rule books.

In answer to the question in the first sentence, in part only, of course: prior to the advent of the internet Carl was one of the highest regarded amateur umpires in the county working FED, NCAA, NBC and numerous other leagues and levels, a recognized and many times published rules expert, author, columnist, and clinican. This, of course, doesn't take into account his professional life.

It is impossible to respond to your second sentence. It just isn't constructed to make sense.

There are only two. Not complicated. Don't get caught up in someone trying to sell you "their" rule book. Fed or OBR. That is all you need. Study it, live it.

Only two?? I carry four and I know of at least three others.

Good try Carl. Now explain to everyone how you are messing up their infield fly calls.

How can one explain how they are doing something they are not doing? Is it similar to the sound of one hand clapping?

And what is up with the big words? Do you use that on the diamond? Good luck!

Aha...there's the problem. You don't understand big words. Let me simplify Carl's' message in three one-syllable (do you know what that means?) words:

You are wrong.

Again, the sound you are hearing is knee-slapping. You should be used to that.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Whowefoolin

Do not patronize, do not be all-inclusive, just try to learn the game.

Without the internet a couple of years ago...who were you? So with that in mind, everyone who is taking all these "big-timers" who just sit around and post all the time, please read the rule books.

My credentials for Carl bashing are unmatched on the internet. (Just ask any of his "buttslappers" as you call them. We used to call them "buttsnufflers", a term invented by Yaworski.) Over the last few years, I have taken great pleasure in mixing it up with Carl.

However, your idiotic post causes me to put aside my pot stirring tendancies for a moment. To wit:

I first heard of Carl Childress in 1989, well before the internet became available for public use. He was a well establish baseball author at that point.

I first heard Carl Childress described as "the number one baseball rules expert in the world" in 1994. This was before there were any umpire internet boards that I am aware of. That's why, in all my flame wars with him, I never argued with him about the rules.

For myself, I first published in 1999 a long internet article on working the plate for the umpire.org website. It's still there, I believe, because I still get email from people thanking me for its insights.

So Mr. Whowefoolin, who are you fooling with your name? What are your credentials?

Several months ago, I wrote a series of articles for eumpire entitled "Third World Plays Only Happen to Third World Umpires". It was built around the following play which has a direct bearing on this discussion:

George Washington University (an NCAA D1 school) was playing a home conference game. At that time, GWU was coached by a man who was known for going crazy on the field. He may have set some kind of record for confrontations with umpires.

The game was being umpired by a three man crew, all of whom were senior, big, big, dogs. The biggest dog of all was the crew chief. The crew chief was known for being an a$$hole and liked to patronize people. He liked to put people in their place, the bigger the dog, the better. (At the time that I wrote the original article, a reader privately emailed me and asked rhetorically. "You mean he was like Carl Childress on the internet?")

Anyway, onto the situation. It was a very windy day (as is common in NCAA games in March) and the fielders were having trouble fielding fly balls. Bases loaded, 1 out. The a$$hole crew chief was in C position. (3 man crew) GWU and their maniac coach are on defense.

Pop up into the infield. The fielders are having difficulty getting under the ball. The big dog a$$hole crew chief decides to adopt "whowefoolin" mechanics and not call an in-field fly. The other two umpires decide to let the patronizing crew chief hang out to dry because they don't like him and so they say nothing. (Normally, in a well oiled crew, a real NCAA umpire would bail out a partner with a brain fart.)

The ball drops to the ground and is picked up by a fielder who throws home for what should be an easy play at the plate and a possible double play. The offensive coach is already headed out of the dugout at a full gallop and the play is not even over. However, the gods of little league are present that day, and the ball gets by the catcher. Run scores, and safe all around.

The offense coach does a 180 and quickly heads back to the dugout. He has just decided that the umpires made a great call. The maniacal GWU coach is headed to the field at a full gallop. He ends up getting ejected (DUH!)

One other fact that I left out. The NCAA umpire conference supervisor was sitting in the stands watching this abortion. He was totally pi$$ed. The super big a$$hole dog got a butt chewing after the game for not calling an infield fly. The NCAA umpire supervisor uses the offensive coach's initial perception of the play as his primary ammunition in his insistance that an infield fly should have been called. In the next meeting, the entire association got instructions on calling infield flies. Even though this was several years ago, no one has let this big dog forget his major foulup. The big dog a$$hole has become a much nicer person now. Humble pie serves medicinal purposes. I enjoy working with him.

By the way, in a side note to Carl, I have known some 12-13 year old boys who go out on dates with indecent intentions. That means that the infield fly should be called there as well.

Peter

[Edited by His High Holiness on Oct 21st, 2002 at 10:06 AM]

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Tim C you are plain nuts!

Do you know anything about rules or are you just on this website to press your personal ignorance. I have not seen any portion of your responses (since I joined the discussion) that addresses the infield fly rule being discussed.

You send public notices poking fun at me and never address the issue of infield fly and the rules of baseball. You have inspired others to join in and let me know how critical and "insulting" I am... still never discussing the rules of baseball. Additionally, on the side, you send me a personal note trying to be my buddy - warning me to ease my way into the forum, and that you have been in the same position as the new guy to the forum, and then you close with the comment that your resume is surely more expansive than mine. Seems bold for someone that doesn't know me but ... Stroke stroke stroke yourself to degrade others; nice touch Tim.

I have not criticized anyone besides you. And this is only because you have completely ignored the issue of the baseball ruling and established a 'JUMP ON DTTB CLUB.'

The fact remains, Jerry said something in a public forum, that umpires are learning from, that potentially establishes interpretation of this rule across the nation, and that I felt was wrong. Given my experiences and knowledge (and you don't know what they are) I was compelled to further the discussion by saying that I thought what he was suggesting was wrong. It was at this point that you jumped me becasue I used the words "Jerry, I would say you are wrong." This was not intended to be critical; it was stated to justify my ensuing discussion... I want to talk about this some more...

Given that there has been no further discussion about the infield fly rule and interpretation of ordinary effort, I still feel what he said is wrong. The defense must be capable of catching the fly before it should be called an infield fly.

Additionally Tim, I have received half-a-dozen other "personal" e-mails saying they agree with my interpretation of ordinary effort. Perhaps they were unwilling to state their agreement given their familiarity with your "known" style of response? Perhaps your lack of focus on baseball rules is dissuading people from joining the discussions?

As I said earlier, "I never meant any offense to Jerry. I just felt he was wrong." For all I know he may be working the World Series.

I sincerely hope that any further discussion on this thread addresses the infield fly/ordinary effort issues.



[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Oct 21st, 2002 at 10:27 AM]

[Jerry]

By now, the "new kid" must realize the interpretation of "reasonable effort" has nothing to do with a specific person or his/her position on the field. Using your definition, a shortstop could be ogling his (or someone else's) girlfriend, daydreaming about a vacation in Tahiti, looking at his/her shoes, clutching his chest because he's suffering a heart attack, etc. etc etc, and have a pop-up soar a mile high directly above his/her head, and make no "effort" whatsover to catch that ball. Of course it is NOT an Infield Fly! The fielder, because of his lapse of memory or inattention, has no reasonable opportunity at all. What if he comes to as soon as the ball hits the ground, though? You've got a mis-call and argument just waiting to happen, my friend.

Listen to the "old-timers" and interpeters . . . "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it." "If an Infield Fly is hit and there's no one around to catch it." is the same.

By the way, for arguments sake . . . all the infielders ARE lined up with their backs against the outfield fence . . . runners on 1st and 2nd or 1st, 2nd and 3rd with less than two outs . . . a high fly ball is hit to the warning track . . . all the fielders have a reasonable opportunity to catch the ball. What do you have?

Doesn't my argument . . . and Carl's . . . and Peter's . . . and Tim's . . . and many more "objective" arguments (who aren't doing World Series but do have a grasp of the rules) make much more sense than your "subjective" one?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Thanks for a germane response.

So, in your opinion and that of some umpires working the ultimate level of games , there is no such thing as ordinary effort. You have flatly said that "no effort" is acceptable, if not ordinary. SO BE IT.

From here on... all pop flies, with infield fly conditions are automatically outs.

Then let's get the words "ordinary effort" out of the rule books altogether. They obviously have confused a lot of us.

All sarcasm aside, it appears some of the umpires here can make those kind of rulings and live through it. I still have to work the game for high school and junior college kids and feel that I would be creating a controversy if I called an infield fly that no one could have caught.

I suppose I started all this conversation of sexual inuendo when I mentioned butt slapping. It does make for an interesting conversation.

[Jackie W.]

I would have to call the infield fly in the situation that started this thread. I definitely feel that the defense was put at an unfair advantage over the baserunners. Now, I have question for Whowefoolin. Just what did you mean by your comment about butt-slapping from the knees?

Jackie

[Jerry]

"No one could have caught."

Those are probably the operative words, my friend. The term "ordinary effort" in the rules is very akin to "reasonable and prudent person" in the legal world. It assumes certain "givens." I.E. The Infielder is playing in a physical location that would be normal for an Infielder. If a fielder (or his coach) chooses to position himself in a different location in order to gain some advantage, it is tacit acknowledgement that an Infield Fly could be called, absent the player from that normal/usual/accepted spot on the field. "Ordinary effort" also gives an umpire some leniency regarding a "popup" versus a "line drive" as it relates to the call of Infield Fly. Just because a fielder (from a usual and accepted position on the Infield) has the opportunity to backup a few steps to catch a ball that is beyond the Infield, for example, doesn't alter the proper call of "Infield Fly-Batter is Out." If however the ball is just a bit lower than a fly ball and would cause that same fielder to run heroically and dive at the "Texas Leaguer" attempting to catch a defined "fly ball", you'd probably not yell "Infield Fly".

That's the reason for the "ordinary effort" phrase. It's not there to give the defense the liberty or luxury of wandering all over the field in the hopes they can avoid having an Infield Fly called.

[Jim Porter]

For what it's worth, I'm in complete agreement with Papa C, Garth, T Alan, Peter, et al.