A Batting Out of Order Question

[cookie]

In NCAA, during a BOO appeal, do the outs made by runners other than the improper batter stand?

For example, 1 out, R1 and R3. In the top half on an inning, an improper batter drives one to the gap. R3 scores, R1 is thrown out at the plate (2 outs), and BR is thrown out at 3rd trying to stretch it into a triple (3 outs - inninng over). Teams change sides.

Now, in the bottom half of the inning, before the next pitch to the next batter, the Offensive Coach (formerly the Defensive Coach of the top half inning) appeals the batting out of order in the top half by the improper batter. The appeal is upheld, and so as a result, the improper batter and R3's run are erased and the proper batter is declared out; BUT what happens to R2and his out at home?

I'm trying to find out in the NCAA 2010 rule book whether outs made during a boo stand (as in the FED Rule Book).

[Forest Ump]

I don't do NCAA but my 2008 BRD reads:

NCAA: After a legal appeal, the proper batter is out and "ALL RUNNERS" return to bases occupied before the action of the improper batter. 7-11a-2 (Note 92: "All runners" clearly implies that even runners who were out will be returned).

[cookie]

"..."ALL RUNNERS" return to bases occupied before the action of the improper batter. 7-11a-2 (Note 92: "All runners" clearly implies that even runners who were out will be returned). "


Forerst Ump,

That would in effect mean in this situation that the two NCAA teams would have to go back to top half of the inning and resume play with 2 outs. Doesn't sound practical...

Whereas, in FED, the outs would stand and you would still have 3 outs and no runs scoring (provided the appeal took place before the fielders left the field in the top half of the inning).

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by cookie

That would in effect mean in this situation that the two NCAA teams would have to go back to top half of the inning and resume play with 2 outs. Doesn't sound practical...

May not seem it - but that's what you do.

Proper batter out. R1 and R3 back to the base where they were before the ball was hit.

The ruling would be the same on OBR.

[TussAgee11]

In OBR the only time runners do anything other than return to where they were is if they advanced independently from the improper batter's actions (my language, not the book's).

If memory serves me correct, there are 5 situations that can make a runner's advancement legal and he would not be subject to return after a proper appeal on BOO.

1) Passed ball / Wild Pitch
2) Steal (including advancement on CI during steal attempt I assume)
3) Balk
4)
5)

Evans may have put passed ball and wild pitch as two separate categories, but I'm still missing one more. help

[BSUmp16]

Originally Posted by cookie

"..."ALL RUNNERS" return to bases occupied before the action of the improper batter. 7-11a-2 (Note 92: "All runners" clearly implies that even runners who were out will be returned). "


Forerst Ump,

That would in effect mean in this situation that the two NCAA teams would have to go back to top half of the inning and resume play with 2 outs. Doesn't sound practical...

Whereas, in FED, the outs would stand and you would still have 3 outs and no runs scoring (provided the appeal took place before the fielders left the field in the top half of the inning).

I believe that the results are the same in all 3 codes: OBR, NCAA and FED. Here's the FED Rule:

"The proper batter is declared out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch." 7-2-2.

So R3 and R1 in the OP are returned to their TOP bases; 1 out.

[UmpJM]

BSUmp,

1. The correct cite for the text you quoted is 7-1-2, Penalty 2.

2. If you read 7-1-1, you will find the sentence "...Any outs made on the play stand. ..."

The FED rule is MATERIALLY different from the OBR & NCAA rules governing the sitch. The language you cite only refers to remaining runners who were NOT put out on the play.

JM

[BSUmp16]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

BSUmp,

1. The correct cite for the text you quoted is 7-1-2, Penalty 2.

2. If you read 7-1-1, you will find the sentence "...Any outs made on the play stand. ..."

The FED rule is MATERIALLY different from the OBR & NCAA rules governing the sitch. The language you cite only refers to remaining runners who were NOT put out on the play.

JM

You're right - 7-1-1 says "any outs made on the play stand." But the Penalty Section says "WHEN THE IMPROPER BATTER BECOMES A RUNNER OR IS PUT OUT... the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch."

I see no reason, either in the wording of the rule or the spirit of the rule why the result is MATERIALLY different in FED than in NCAA or OBR.

I believe what the rule is saying is that if the improper batter is discovered PRIOR to becoming a runner, any outs made while he is still at bat stand. However, once he becomes a runner, and on proper appeal, he is declared out and all runners return to their TOP base.

For example, if during the improper batter's time at bat, the catcher successfully throws down on a runner stealing (an out) that out stands. But after the improper batter becomes a runner, then FED, NCAA and OBR are all the same: the improper batter is out and all runners return to their TOP bases.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

You're right - 7-1-1 says "any outs made on the play stand." But the Penalty Section says "WHEN THE IMPROPER BATTER BECOMES A RUNNER OR IS PUT OUT... the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch."

I see no reason, either in the wording of the rule or the spirit of the rule why the result is MATERIALLY different in FED than in NCAA or OBR.

I believe what the rule is saying is that if the improper batter is discovered PRIOR to becoming a runner, any outs made while he is still at bat stand. However, once he becomes a runner, and on proper appeal, he is declared out and all runners return to their TOP base.

For example, if during the improper batter's time at bat, the catcher successfully throws down on a runner stealing (an out) that out stands. But after the improper batter becomes a runner, then FED, NCAA and OBR are all the same: the improper batter is out and all runners return to their TOP bases.

In FED, all outs stand due to the actions of the improper batter becoming a runner.

This is not true for NCAA and OBR.

[BSUmp16]

Well, I guess if you say so, it must be true. If you want to be a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower, that is your right. But you don't have to be so defensive and insulting of people who choose to have their eyes and minds open to what the realities are.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

Well, I guess if you say so, it must be true. If you want to be a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower, that is your right. But you don't have to be so defensive and insulting of people who choose to have their eyes and minds open to what the realities are.

UmpTTS43, is right.

Furthermore, why bring up a FED ruling when the OP was clearly asking for the NCAA interpretation of BOO? If you do, at least get your facts straight....

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

Well, I guess if you say so, it must be true. If you want to be a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower, that is your right. But you don't have to be so defensive and insulting of people who choose to have their eyes and minds open to what the realities are.

Where are there any insults?

[BSUmp16]

I mentioned the FED rule because cookie originally brought it up in his September 23 post (see above). The "blindly loyal" quote is from UmpTTS43's personal quotes. I was trying to say that just because someone says its true, doesn't necessarily mean its true. I still have not seen anything official that contradicts the interpretation I've given. I agree I may be wrong, the FED Rule I cite is ambiguous. I'm not sure I can rely on "it is because we say so" as an official or even semi-official interpretation, especially when the rule itself says WHEN THE IMPROPER BATTER BECOMES A RUNNER OR IS PUT OUT... the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.", which at least has the advantage of being consistent with both the OBR and NCAA rules. Again, I may be wrong, but "Because I said so" is not real convincing

[Rich Ives]

Most of us believe it means that the outs stand.

If that makes us "a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower" then so be it.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

Well, I guess if you say so, it must be true. If you want to be a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower, that is your right. But you don't have to be so defensive and insulting of people who choose to have their eyes and minds open to what the realities are.

You are right, if I say so, it is true. The only loyal accepting follower you see is one that understands the rules and their applications.

If I was meant to be insulting, my post would have read something along the lines of this.

Dear BSUmp16,

I now see why you choose to use the BS in your ID along with your baseball IQ. You may think your mind and eyes are open, but you obvioulsy do not know what the realities are concerning this rule within different rule codes. Due to your ignorance concerning this matter, I can only imagine what you feel the "realities" are concerning other rules, both simplistic in nature such as this one, and the more complex. Please keep posting. I am often in need of a good laugh and I will feel free to use your commentary as my comic relief. By the way, you are wrong concerning the FED rule. Maybe you should read the rule book before you decide to express your opinions. The rule is 7-1-1. That would be Rule 7, section 1, article 1. Pg. 41, this follows page 40, in the FED 2010 rule book.

It's a good thing that I don't feel it is necessary to be insulting. I merely pointed out a fact that you do not accept as being true. Have a nice day.