A Batting Out of Order Question

[UmpJM]

BSUmp,

1. The correct cite for the text you quoted is 7-1-2, Penalty 2.

2. If you read 7-1-1, you will find the sentence "...Any outs made on the play stand. ..."

The FED rule is MATERIALLY different from the OBR & NCAA rules governing the sitch. The language you cite only refers to remaining runners who were NOT put out on the play.

JM

[BSUmp16]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

BSUmp,

1. The correct cite for the text you quoted is 7-1-2, Penalty 2.

2. If you read 7-1-1, you will find the sentence "...Any outs made on the play stand. ..."

The FED rule is MATERIALLY different from the OBR & NCAA rules governing the sitch. The language you cite only refers to remaining runners who were NOT put out on the play.

JM

You're right - 7-1-1 says "any outs made on the play stand." But the Penalty Section says "WHEN THE IMPROPER BATTER BECOMES A RUNNER OR IS PUT OUT... the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch."

I see no reason, either in the wording of the rule or the spirit of the rule why the result is MATERIALLY different in FED than in NCAA or OBR.

I believe what the rule is saying is that if the improper batter is discovered PRIOR to becoming a runner, any outs made while he is still at bat stand. However, once he becomes a runner, and on proper appeal, he is declared out and all runners return to their TOP base.

For example, if during the improper batter's time at bat, the catcher successfully throws down on a runner stealing (an out) that out stands. But after the improper batter becomes a runner, then FED, NCAA and OBR are all the same: the improper batter is out and all runners return to their TOP bases.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

You're right - 7-1-1 says "any outs made on the play stand." But the Penalty Section says "WHEN THE IMPROPER BATTER BECOMES A RUNNER OR IS PUT OUT... the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch."

I see no reason, either in the wording of the rule or the spirit of the rule why the result is MATERIALLY different in FED than in NCAA or OBR.

I believe what the rule is saying is that if the improper batter is discovered PRIOR to becoming a runner, any outs made while he is still at bat stand. However, once he becomes a runner, and on proper appeal, he is declared out and all runners return to their TOP base.

For example, if during the improper batter's time at bat, the catcher successfully throws down on a runner stealing (an out) that out stands. But after the improper batter becomes a runner, then FED, NCAA and OBR are all the same: the improper batter is out and all runners return to their TOP bases.

In FED, all outs stand due to the actions of the improper batter becoming a runner.

This is not true for NCAA and OBR.

[BSUmp16]

Well, I guess if you say so, it must be true. If you want to be a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower, that is your right. But you don't have to be so defensive and insulting of people who choose to have their eyes and minds open to what the realities are.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

Well, I guess if you say so, it must be true. If you want to be a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower, that is your right. But you don't have to be so defensive and insulting of people who choose to have their eyes and minds open to what the realities are.

UmpTTS43, is right.

Furthermore, why bring up a FED ruling when the OP was clearly asking for the NCAA interpretation of BOO? If you do, at least get your facts straight....

[BSUmp16]

I mentioned the FED rule because cookie originally brought it up in his September 23 post (see above). The "blindly loyal" quote is from UmpTTS43's personal quotes. I was trying to say that just because someone says its true, doesn't necessarily mean its true. I still have not seen anything official that contradicts the interpretation I've given. I agree I may be wrong, the FED Rule I cite is ambiguous. I'm not sure I can rely on "it is because we say so" as an official or even semi-official interpretation, especially when the rule itself says WHEN THE IMPROPER BATTER BECOMES A RUNNER OR IS PUT OUT... the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.", which at least has the advantage of being consistent with both the OBR and NCAA rules. Again, I may be wrong, but "Because I said so" is not real convincing

[Rich Ives]

Most of us believe it means that the outs stand.

If that makes us "a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower" then so be it.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

Well, I guess if you say so, it must be true. If you want to be a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower, that is your right. But you don't have to be so defensive and insulting of people who choose to have their eyes and minds open to what the realities are.

Where are there any insults?

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

Well, I guess if you say so, it must be true. If you want to be a blindly loyal, blissfully accepting follower, that is your right. But you don't have to be so defensive and insulting of people who choose to have their eyes and minds open to what the realities are.

You are right, if I say so, it is true. The only loyal accepting follower you see is one that understands the rules and their applications.

If I was meant to be insulting, my post would have read something along the lines of this.

Dear BSUmp16,

I now see why you choose to use the BS in your ID along with your baseball IQ. You may think your mind and eyes are open, but you obvioulsy do not know what the realities are concerning this rule within different rule codes. Due to your ignorance concerning this matter, I can only imagine what you feel the "realities" are concerning other rules, both simplistic in nature such as this one, and the more complex. Please keep posting. I am often in need of a good laugh and I will feel free to use your commentary as my comic relief. By the way, you are wrong concerning the FED rule. Maybe you should read the rule book before you decide to express your opinions. The rule is 7-1-1. That would be Rule 7, section 1, article 1. Pg. 41, this follows page 40, in the FED 2010 rule book.

It's a good thing that I don't feel it is necessary to be insulting. I merely pointed out a fact that you do not accept as being true. Have a nice day.

[BSUmp16]

Look - I admit 2 things: The rule is ambiguous. I may be wrong. I'm just looking for some authoritative interpretation that says what you say the rule says it says. There is nothing definitive in the rule that says what you say it says. The Casebook doesn't have anything that supports your position (or disproves your position for that matter). Nothing in "Baseball Rules by Topic" (published by NFHS) supports your position. BRT says:

"When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the first legal or illegal pitch, or play or attempted play, or prior to an intentional base on balls or before the infielders leave the diamond if a half-inning is ending, the umpire shall declare the proper batter out and return all runners to the base occupied at the time of the pitch."

Nowhere can I find that it says the penalty applies "except for runners called out during the improper batters time at bat.", which is what you are saying. Further, nothing in "Baseball Rules Simplified & Illustrated" (also published by NFHS) says what you say is the penalty.

All I am asking is that if the rule is universally interpreted the way you say it is, provide me some authority - any authority.

Finally, if you can't engage in a simple dialogue without resorting to personal insults, that's OK too, but if that's all you got, you don't got much.

[greymule]

I haven't done FED in several years, but as I recall there was no ambiguity about BOO. This from the 2006 BRD might help:

Play 65-83: R1, 0 out. Able should bat but Baker steps in and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. The umpire recognizes the appeal of the defense. Ruling: In FED, R1 remains out. Able is out, and Baker bats with the bases empty. In NCAA and OBR, R1 returns to 1B, Able is out, and Baker is the next batter.

Note 94: FED has had a tough time with BOO since they added the unannounced editorial change ("outs made on play stand") in 1991. For three glorious years the ruling in play 65-83 above would have been a triple play. Improper batter Baker hits into a double play. So: (1) the improper batter is out, (2) the runner on base is out, and (3) the proper batter is out. In 1994 they killed that possibility with: "An out for BOO supersedes an out by the improper batter on a play." (7-1-2b Ex)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BSUmp16

Look - I admit 2 things: The rule is ambiguous. I may be wrong.

I've come late to this party, and I can't tell for sure whether you're trolling or simply clueless. I (and every umpire I've ever met or talked to ... except you) read the following passage in the rulebook: "any outs made on the play stand" as a rather unambiguous direct statement that we construe to mean that ANY OUTS MADE ON THE PLAY STAND. If you can't take that statement, right there in the rulebook, as clear statement of FED's rule on the matter, I don't think anything else will help you. Perhaps attend a clinic, ask your supervisor, their supervisor, whatever.

Are you under the perception that in the hundreds of thousands of FED baseball games played in the last many many years, NO ONE has realized that every single one of us is calling it wrong? Seems rather unbelievable, doesn't it?

[DG]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

BSUmp,

1. The correct cite for the text you quoted is 7-1-2, Penalty 2.

2. If you read 7-1-1, you will find the sentence "...Any outs made on the play stand. ..."

The FED rule is MATERIALLY different from the OBR & NCAA rules governing the sitch. The language you cite only refers to remaining runners who were NOT put out on the play.

JM

Well then, if I read 7-1-1 and 7-1-2 PENALTIES, combine them, then with R1 and R3 and 1 out, if defense turns a 6-4-3 DP in FED on the batted ball by improper batter then there are 3 outs and no score, the proper batter is called out as the 2nd out in the 6-4-3 and the improper batter could very well be the next batter. If it happens with 0 outs then R3 returns to 3b after the DP.

This is materially different than OBR and NCAA.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by DG

Well then, if I read 7-1-1 and 7-1-2 PENALTIES, combine them, then with R1 and R3 and 1 out, if defense turns a 6-4-3 DP in FED on the batted ball by improper batter then there are 3 outs and no score, the proper batter is called out as the 2nd out in the 6-4-3 and the improper batter could very well be the next batter. If it happens with 0 outs then R3 returns to 3b after the DP.

This is materially different than OBR and NCAA.

Damn, I believe you're beginning to catch on.