Tampa Bay/NY Jeter HBP?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Publius

While you are "correct", and I use "time" out of longstanding habit, we'd all be better served to stop encouraging these form-over-substance distinctions. There is absolutely no difference in the outcome of the two pronouncements, and nobody is confused by either.

Heck, custom and practice notwithstanding, a case can be made for "dead ball" being better. Sometimes the ball becomes dead by rule, and sometimes by a call of "time". If it's by rule, as when the pitch hits the batter, "time" is superfluous; no need to call it when play is already dead.

"Time" causes a dead ball; "dead ball" is giving information.

Nonsense. Calling out "dead ball" shows an umpire who isn't trained just as much as an umpire calling out "no, no, no, no" instead of "safe" is showing the same thing.

There is a right way to do things and there are other ways. I wonder what Jim Evans and his instructors would do if you shouted out "dead ball" at school -- oh, I know that. They'd pretend to shoot the baseball.

[jkumpire]

Men,

If you are upset about Jeter, then become a golf official. I have no idea what the man is like in his off the field life, and we will never really know it. The Press warps everything, good or bad with a guy like him. To me he seems like a classy ballplayer who may well be in the HOF one day.

But, he is a ballplayer looking to try and get a win for his team. What's the old saying? "If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin' hard enough?" He's trying to win a big game, and he tried to get on first any way he can. He won the lottery that time, he won't the next time. Just don't diss his character, until he has a November date with a golf club tree and fire hydrant and shows it for all to see.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Men,

Just don't diss his character, until he has a November date with a golf club tree and fire hydrant and shows it for all to see.

Let's see, he put on an outrageous act to convince all that he was hit by a pitch that he knew didn't hit him and then he blamed the umpire for giving him first base.

That reveals enough of his character to warrant dissing. He is a lying, coniving Rat.

[jimpiano]

In other words, no one here can deal with this play if replay was in use.

[jkumpire]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Let's see, he put on an outrageous act to convince all that he was hit by a pitch that he knew didn't hit him and then he blamed the umpire for giving him first base.

That reveals enough of his character to warrant dissing. He is a lying, coniving Rat.

My good man,

You mean nobody has ever tried to pull that stuff on you? I've had HS kids try that act, and it's no skin off my nose when I didn't buy it. I did lose some skin the first time I fell for it, however.

pianoman,

Not sure what you mean by your post.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Nonsense. Calling out "dead ball" shows an umpire who isn't trained just as much as an umpire calling out "no, no, no, no" instead of "safe" is showing the same thing.

There is a right way to do things and there are other ways. I wonder what Jim Evans and his instructors would do if you shouted out "dead ball" at school -- oh, I know that. They'd pretend to shoot the baseball.

Well, sure, but sometimes the "right way" is just an opinion that becomes adopted by sycophants. This is part of the minutiae evaluators use to determine who gets to be a member of "the club". It's in a group with what foul line you stand on between innings, how long the brim of a plate umpire's hat is, what brand of clothing you wear, what hand you use to take off your mask, and whether you use an indicator. To be in "the club" you have to adhere to the minutiae, but they don't add to the quality of your calls.

The distinction between "dead ball" and "time" is more like "three balls, two strikes" and "full count"; umpires are trained to say the former, but on the field the players understand both equally well, and couldn't care less which is used. "No, no, no" isn't even in the same league--it's ambiguous.

Evans could just as easily deem "dead ball" the preferred call--it's more logical, certainly, than calling time when the play is already dead by rule--and if someone called "Time", pretend to look at his watch. Nobody cares except umpires who want to be in the club.

[UmpJM]

Publius,

You are mistaken.

“TIME” is the announcement by an umpire of a legal interruption of play, during which the ball is dead.

A DEAD BALL is a ball out of play because of a legally created temporary suspension of play.

JM

[JRutledge]

Is all of this really that serious. It is a player trying to get and advantage. I agree it was not proper to do that, but I do not think he is the worst person in the world because of it. As a matter of fact I am not surprised and never put Jeter on this pedestal that I see others put him on because he is human. It was very funny and not much different than what you see in a soccer game. And it worked. I bet he will not get the benefit of the doubt next time.

Peace

[Matt]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is all of this really that serious. It is a player trying to get and advantage. I agree it was not proper to do that, but I do not think he is the worst person in the world because of it. As a matter of fact I am not surprised and never put Jeter on this pedestal that I see others put him on because he is human. It was very funny and not much different than what you see in a soccer game. And it worked. I bet he will not get the benefit of the doubt next time.

Peace

No, it didn't work, because the call had already been made.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Did they play his answer in which he blamed the umpire for giving him first? A real class act.

His answer was..."the umpire told me to go to first, I wasn't going to argue."

[NJump]

Name three, any three, MLB players who wouldn't try this exact same thing. If you can, it is because they are not quick enough to try. Plays like this abound in EVERY sport at every level. When was the last time anyone heard a player say, " It hit my bat first. I'll just stay here." The player is "selling", doesn't mean the official has to buy. Youtube has a college player acting like he needs a trip to ER, but the ump AIN'T buying. Last time I looked, one team tries to beat the other. How they try is why there are officials. And RULES. If you ain't breaking the rules, then you are SIMPLY trying to win. What a concept!!!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Matt

No, it didn't work, because the call had already been made.

He was at first base, so it worked.

Peace

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by NJump

Plays like this abound in EVERY sport at every level.

The soccer player who takes a dive after minor contact, if any, and stays on the ground, rolling around in pain trying to get a penalty against his opponent.

The basketball defender who takes the charge on the player going down the lane falling into a gruesome heap even though he was barely touched in order to draw the charge.

The football player who catches the ball on the short hop and comes up holding it high for everyone to see proving he caught it even though he knows he didn't.

The hockey player who leaps in the air and slides half-way down the ice on an “obvious” trip.

Is this because it's Derek Cheater? A Yankee? A superstar?

[txump81]

Didn't have a chance to read this whole discussion, but here is my .02.

Good sell by Jeter. As an umpire, you should use more than your eyes to make calls. I heard the crack of ball meeting bat pretty clear on the video. So no HBP. When Jeter starts hopping around, I would probably give him a HBP, but the ball hit the bat first, so "Strike". It's all part of the game.

I would have liked to hear the conversation between Jeter and the trainer.

"Where'd it get you?"
"Right here on the hand"
"I don't see any bruising or feel any fractured bones."
"Well that @#$%^&* hurt."
"I'll be OK"

Maybe it was premeditated and the trainer was in on it?!? What's the difference in this and a fielder making a "tag" but missing the runner and then throwing to the next base for a double play. A good fielder will sell the tag.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

So, if Baseball has instant replay how would umpires resolve this play?

What happens when the umpire kills a live ball in error?
How would you get through this one?
What would you do?

At the end of the day this is a play almost impossible to call by humans in real time. Does that mean we need instant replay?

There's no good answer as to what would be done if this play was reversible -- award bases? Do what you "think" would have happened?

If a play like this becomes subject to review, then you'll see umpires trained to leave the ball live in any questionable situation and use replay to reverse it. In fact, that's good training and good umpiring anyway.