Left Early on a Caught Fly

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

I think this one seals it.

I agree - this is what I was looking for. Even HOPING for.

[UmpJM]

johnny,

Good find. I'm embarrassed you beat me to it.

To me, though counterintuitive, this is really pretty simple.

From Rule 2, we have the defintion of "catch":

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; ...

From the MLBUM we have a definition of a "play", as the word is used in the context of 7.05(g):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. ...

Since, by definition, a play can only be made by a fielder who already has possession of the ball, and a catch can only be made by someone who doesn't have possession of the ball, a catch cannot, by definition, be a 7.05(g) play.

JM

[johnnyg08]

5.11 since I'm having so much fun here today. Thank God my daughter is napping.

From MLBUM:

5.11 Award made from original base after catch

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch much retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base - see section 5.12), and the award is then made from his original base. (see casebook comments following OBR 7.05i)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and his between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into DBT. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (part of mbcrowder's OP) (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch the base. Furthermore, because the runner was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base)

There you go guys. I'm curious to see your thoughts.

Thanks for the discussion and making me dig to find this.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

On 1 I don't think there's a material difference for the purpose of this rule. If F2 fields a bunt and tries to tag the BR and then wings the ball into the stands trying to retire R2 at third I think the throw would be the second play. So a catch would be a legitimate effort to actually retire a runner.

IMO, you're close. I believe that the tag attempt would be the first play. Then the second play would be the throw.

Gaining possession of the ball, from what I read and typed, is not a play.

Reread the part where is states that a play dictates what happens after a fielder gains possession.

Other thoughts on that? Open to feedback either way.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

IMO, you're close. I believe that the tag attempt would be the first play. Then the second play would be the throw.

Gaining possession of the ball, from what I read and typed, is not a play.

Reread the part where is states that a play dictates what happens after a fielder gains possession.

Other thoughts on that? Open to feedback either way.

I think you're right. I think "who has possession" is referring to the start of the effort. So a player catching the ball does not yet have possession of the ball so his effort is not a play even though he has possession at the end of the effort.

[UmpJM]

johnny,

Rich Ives posted this on the second page of this thread.

As I said earlier, it does not apply to the OP because the OP involved a first play by an infielder which is a TOP award and the correct award is 3B, regardless.

And, of course, under FED rules, if the R1 is still between 2B and 3B when the ball goes out of play, he has lost the opportunity to correct his failure to retouch on the catch regardless of what he does.

JM

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

johnny,

Rich Ives posted this on the second page of this thread.

As I said earlier, it does not apply to the OP because the OP involved a first play by an infielder which is a TOP award and the correct award is 3B, regardless.

And, of course, under FED rules, if the R1 is still between 2B and 3B when the ball goes out of play, he has lost the opportunity to correct his failure to retouch on the catch regardless of what he does.

JM

We can't let this die, even though we agree on the main sticky point, huh?

I thought the FED rule said NEXT base ... meaning if he was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball goes out of play, he can return to first as long as he doesn't touch THIRD.

[NFump]

No he gets third in this instance because he hadn't reached second at time of throw so in this case the award is the same TOT or TOP first play doesn't matter. In order for this to be an example of a catch not being a play the runner would have had to have reached second before the throw then the first play rule comes into effect.

[MD Longhorn]

Interestingly, for those that work both ... in softball, a catch is a play. And it's addressed DIRECTLY in the rules - what a novelty!

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

So a player catching the ball does not yet have possession of the ball so his effort is not a play even though he has possession at the end of the effort.

No, I think I mean that possession by itself does not equal a play.

His tag attempt, with possession is the play. F2 just having the ball in his glove is not a play...his tag attempt paired with possession of the ball is a play.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

We can't let this die, even though we agree on the main sticky point, huh?

I thought the FED rule said NEXT base ... meaning if he was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball goes out of play, he can return to first as long as he doesn't touch THIRD.

You guys can copy and paste from the online FED books. I'll sit back and read for a while! My fingers are tired.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

We can't let this die, even though we agree on the main sticky point, huh?

I thought the FED rule said NEXT base ... meaning if he was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball goes out of play, he can return to first as long as he doesn't touch THIRD.

Mike,

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

This is another one of those kind of "tricky" rules things that is somewhat counterintuitive and a lot of people (including umpires) are confused about.

What you suggest is true for OBR rules, but is NOT true for FED rules.

Under OBR rules, the runner only loses his opportunity to correct his infraction if he touches a base beyond his position at the time the ball went out of play.

Under FED rules, if he is a "base beyond" his retouch or missed base at the time the ball goes out of play, he has lost the opportunity to correct his infraction. Unless the umpire judges that the fielder intentionally threw the ball out of play to prevent him from returning to correct his infraction. (No, I an not making this up.)

FED 8-2-6d1.

JM

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

We can't let this die, even though we agree on the main sticky point, huh?

I thought the FED rule said NEXT base ... meaning if he was between 2nd and 3rd when the ball goes out of play, he can return to first as long as he doesn't touch THIRD.

Nope.

8-2-5
"If a runner who misses a base . . . or leaves a base early desires to return to touch the base, he must do so immediately. If the ball becomes dead and the runner is on or beyond a succeeding base, he cannot return to the missed base . . ."

[MD Longhorn]

If I ever worked FED baseball, I'd have to come over here and study hard first. I only work baseball when softball runs out of steam, and all the summer ball here is OBR-based.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

FED 8-2-6d1.

JM

They are so certain about it they put it in twice!