Left Early on a Caught Fly

[UmpJM]

johnny,

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

...
To call R3 safe using the unmistakable portion of the rule would be improper interpretation and picking up the dirty end of the stick.
....

No, that would be properly ruling on the play - your "spirit" interpretation is incorrect. Both the letter and spirit of the rule require an unmistakeable act that indicates the fielder is appealing the infraction.

If the fielder didn't think he appealed, neither do I.

JM

[Eastshire]

In both plays, the fielder's attempt to retire the runner after the touch of the bag shows that he wasn't trying to appeal with the touch.

[greymule]

Fed's oft-mentioned "accidental appeal" was actually an accidental force out that was commonly interpreted as an appeal. It derived from the unique, now-discarded Fed ruling that a runner who beat the throw at 1B (even by several steps) but missed the bag was to be called out when F3 gloved the ball on the bag, with no appeal necessary. Fed extended this "logic" to all bases. For example, R1 missed 2B on a hit to RF, beat F9's throw to 3B, and F5 then tagged him. R1 was out, no appeal, for missing 2B. Same if an infielder with the ball kicked dirt off a missed base to which a runner was forced.

The OP is a HTBT, but F5's subsequent attempted tag would indicate to me that his falling on the bag was not an appeal. Conversely, if F5 merely got up and immediately proceeded toward his dugout, I might give the out on appeal.

[jicecone]

First of all, in the first situation F5 had and oppurtunity to make it look like an appeal by stopping all action after landing on the bag. The fact that he chased the runner killed that idea.

Secondly Mike, I think you UIC needs to rethink his ruling because, well its just wrong.

[MD Longhorn]

OK, Mr. UIC has seen the responses and believes me on the appeal sitch. He doesn't believe me on the base award of home. Can someone please elucidate?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

OK, Mr. UIC has seen the responses and believes me on the appeal sitch. He doesn't believe me on the base award of home. Can someone please elucidate?

Runners are assumed to have successfully reached all bases they are pass for the purposes of all base awards. The throw by F3 is a subsequent play by an infielder (the catch being the first play by the infielder). The award is 2 bases from the time of throw for a thrown ball out of play by an infielder other than his first play.

Since the runner was past second at the time of the throw, the base awarded is home.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

OK, Mr. UIC has seen the responses and believes me on the appeal sitch. He doesn't believe me on the base award of home. Can someone please elucidate?

MLBUM (I think they're for sale at Evans' site. They were at umpire,org for a while (got mine there). In the PBUC manual it's in section 6.11 Play 2. Buy it at the same place.


5.10 AWARD MADE FROM ORIGINAL BASE AFTER CATCH

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base-see Section 5.11), and the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook Comments following Official Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

[MD Longhorn]

Thanks guys.

[Fittske]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

MLBUM (I think they're for sale at Evans' site. They were at umpire,org for a while (got mine there). In the PBUC manual it's in section 6.11 Play 2. Buy it at the same place.


5.10 AWARD MADE FROM ORIGINAL BASE AFTER CATCH

A runner who is forced to return to a base after a catch must retouch his original base even though he may have been awarded additional bases on the play. The runner may retouch while the ball is dead (provided the runner does so before reaching the next base-see Section 5.11), and the award is then made from his original base. (See Casebook Comments following Official Baseball Rule 7.05(i).)

Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when the wild throw is made.

Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

This sitch is only valid if the base runner attempts to return to retouch 1st base after the ball is thrown into DBT. you would not "automaticly" award 3rd beacuse your award should not tip the offense or defense that a possible infraction has been made. It is up to the offensive team to correct the base running mistake. The initial ruling should be an award of home, then if the base runner returns to retouch 1st, then you stop the runner @ 3rd hand have fun explaining to coaches what just happened :-)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Fittske

This sitch is only valid if the base runner attempts to return to retouch 1st base after the ball is thrown into DBT. you would not "automaticly" award 3rd beacuse your award should not tip the offense or defense that a possible infraction has been made. It is up to the offensive team to correct the base running mistake. The initial ruling should be an award of home, then if the base runner returns to retouch 1st, then you stop the runner @ 3rd hand have fun explaining to coaches what just happened :-)

Yeah ... that's exactly what he said. Award home, change if/when runner retouches.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

OK, Mr. UIC has seen the responses and believes me on the appeal sitch. He doesn't believe me on the base award of home. Can someone please elucidate?

mike,

Since the wild throw was the first play by an infielder (Eastshire, the catch of the line drive does NOT qualify as a play in the context of this rule), it is a 2 base award for all viable runners from their position at the TOP.

The proper award for the R1 is 3B - not home & not 2B.

Edited to add: Rich's MLBUM cite does not pertain to your sitch becuase it involves a wild throw from an outfielder - which is always a TOT award.

JM

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Since the wild throw was the first play by an infielder

wrong.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

wrong.

Mike,

Would you care to bet on that?

As you described it, the wild throw is absolutely the "first play by an infielder" and, since all runners, including the BR, had not reached an advance base at the time the wild throw was released, this is a 2-base award, TOP.

Yes, I'm sure. Do I need to provide you with cites, or can you look it up yourself?

JM

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mike,

Would you care to bet on that?

As you described it, the wild throw is absolutely the "first play by an infielder" and, since all runners, including the BR, had not reached an advance base at the time the wild throw was released, this is a 2-base award, TOP.

Yes, I'm sure. Do I need to provide you with cites, or can you look it up yourself?

JM

Sure ... cites would be great. How are you saying all runners had not reached an advance base? BR is NOT a runner at the time the wild throw was released. BR is a retired runner - whose position can NOT be relevant any longer. And R1 had most assuredly advanced.

And how can the catch not be a play? If BR interfered with such a fielder, BR would be guilty of interfering with A PLAY...