How about an opinion:

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

Taking judgement away, it is my opinion that coaches can contribute to an umpires evaluation concerning professionalism and game management. [snip] Coaches can be, and are, tools.

Fixed that for you.

And to actually address the subject, I disagree that coaches are all that valuable to the process. Let me try putting it in mathematical terms, what a coach thinks, generally:

Non-obvious calls went mostly against me == you (the umpire) suck
Non-obvious calls went mostly for me == you suck, but less

Remember, we're pretty much the enemy to these guys, like it or not. Because that call you made in the bottom of the first, calling a kid out on a banger at 1B? That one play was the difference in his team getting beaten 12-1.

I'd like to agree with you that coaches could address professionalism. I'd like to, but can't. Players and coaches can chirp all game long about anything and everything, but the second an umpire says anything, he's the bad guy.

Something apparently happened a couple games ago for the Nats, where an umpire said something to Jim Riggleman after the game, and it became a "thing." I heard Ron Dibble - speaking of tools - on TV last night, and he said something like "Well, Jim Riggleman is a consummate professional, so if he says something about, it's serious." Dibble conveniently doesn't mention anything about how benches gripe all game long.

It's such a one-way street that I really don't want coach input considered. Or, collect all you want, and then take the paper straight to the local recycling company.

[kylejt]

Two reason you may want the coaches input:

One, they'll feel like they have a say in the process. Real, or imagined, that can't be a bad thing.

Two, they might provide some good insight. They see things from a different angle, and don't look for shiny stuff and snappy rotations. If you have someone smart looking at their evaluations, and taking them for what they're worth, then you can glean some valuable information from them. If you have some dolt, who just dismisses everything a coach says as drivel, then you might as well forget about it.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Two reason you may want the coaches input:

One, they'll feel like they have a say in the process. Real, or imagined, that can't be a bad thing.

Two, they might provide some good insight. They see things from a different angle, and don't look for shiny stuff and snappy rotations. If you have someone smart looking at their evaluations, and taking them for what they're worth, then you can glean some valuable information from them. If you have some dolt, who just dismisses everything a coach says as drivel, then you might as well forget about it.

I guess I lean towards the "dolt" side of the meter, then.

I don't disagree with part one - let them think they have a say. IF you can get them to submit anything.

Part two: I wouldn't say it's all drivel, but whatever valuable information a coach has, it's probably got much more to do with the "play-calling" and the skills teaching for winning games, than it does for noticing what we do.

[kylejt]

I know some coaches that have been around the block, and can offer some pretty good information on umpires. I'll hunt them out, and seek information on my crews. Some coaches are actually umpires themselves, and have a different take on things, good or bad.

My point is that you shouldn't just summarily dismiss their input. 90% may be worthless, maybe more. But you might learn something from the other 10%.

As for umpires evaluating coaches, I do it all the time. I'll rate them on rules knowledge, game management, situational awareness, etc. I'm usually on the panel that evaluates them as All Star manager candidates, and my input is pretty highly regarded.

If you're in the "all coaches are rats" club, disregard all of the above.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by kylejt

I know some coaches that have been around the block, and can offer some pretty good information on umpires. I'll hunt them out, and seek information on my crews. Some coaches are actually umpires themselves, and have a different take on things, good or bad.

My point is that you shouldn't just summarily dismiss their input. 90% may be worthless, maybe more. But you might learn something from the other 10%.

As for umpires evaluating coaches, I do it all the time. I'll rate them on rules knowledge, game management, situational awareness, etc. I'm usually on the panel that evaluates them as All Star manager candidates, and my input is pretty highly regarded.

If you're in the "all coaches are rats" club, disregard all of the above.

I agree with you that coaches are going to have input. But I do not want coaches having input about mechanics and in some cases judgment. Now in basketball and football, if an official does something wrong there must be video tape to back up the complaint. Usually a complaint has to be reviewed by someone that assigns or someone that is a trainer and gets back to the coach on the issue. That does not happen in baseball hardly ever. I cannot think of too many games that are taped by the school as a regular practice. In football and basketball, they record many levels not just the varsity. So when there is an issue coaches can ask for clarification or show a clear misapplication of the rules.

I had a coach this year that wanted me to ask for help on a pulled foot while I was in the A position. I clearly saw the play, but the coach thinks for some reason that this play must be asked for help. The people that trained me would be upset if I asked for help on a play that I not only was close to but had a clean look. And for the record my partner could not help me as the play was not easy for him based on his angle. But this coach say, "You are one of those guys" because I would not ask for help. Must I add everyone left the field when he asked for this "help." Sorry, I do not want that guy who likely has not been coaching as long as I have been umpiring what I or anyone should do to get better.

Also we have had coach's forums at association meetings and what we have found is they are a waste of time. Because the coaches b@@@h about umpires/officials and do not offer much to help people get better.

You can have them, I will pass. And if I have anything to say about it, I do not want their input at all when it comes to evaluation. They will always have input in some way like ratings, but that is as far as it should go. And no I do not believe all coaches are rats, they are just coaches.

Peace

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

Fixed that for you.

And to actually address the subject, I disagree that coaches are all that valuable to the process. Let me try putting it in mathematical terms, what a coach thinks, generally:

Non-obvious calls went mostly against me == you (the umpire) suck
Non-obvious calls went mostly for me == you suck, but less

Remember, we're pretty much the enemy to these guys, like it or not. Because that call you made in the bottom of the first, calling a kid out on a banger at 1B? That one play was the difference in his team getting beaten 12-1.

I'd like to agree with you that coaches could address professionalism. I'd like to, but can't. Players and coaches can chirp all game long about anything and everything, but the second an umpire says anything, he's the bad guy.

Something apparently happened a couple games ago for the Nats, where an umpire said something to Jim Riggleman after the game, and it became a "thing." I heard Ron Dibble - speaking of tools - on TV last night, and he said something like "Well, Jim Riggleman is a consummate professional, so if he says something about, it's serious." Dibble conveniently doesn't mention anything about how benches gripe all game long.

It's such a one-way street that I really don't want coach input considered. Or, collect all you want, and then take the paper straight to the local recycling company.

Regardless of what you think, my post did not need any fixing.

I'm sure we work different levels. In the levels that I work there is mutual respect. Although they may disagree with my judgement at times, they respect the way I work a game.