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Fri Nov 15, 2002, 01:35pm
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Last year, a situation happened that has bothered me. Time was winding down in the 2nd quarter of a girls varsity game. We were a 3 man crew and I was the trail tableside. In our chapter we teach the C has the final shot responsibilities. The C was directly behind the girl as she set up for a 3 point shot. The ball was passed to her from my area and she shot. I am 150% sure that she released after the horn, but for some reason the C did not wave it off and instead held the three finger sign for a 3 point attempt. Fortunately, the shot missed. As I walked by the coach, she commented that my partner was going to count it. Everyone in gym (almost everyone) knew the shot was released late. When we got in the locker room we discussed the play and the C said that under no circumstances was I to "buy my way into that call." This ref has more experience than I, but I would think we would want to get the call right in this case. Your opinions please.
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Fri Nov 15, 2002, 01:52pm
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A few thoughts:
Lucky it was a missed try. Best to "keep on moving" and not acknowledge the coach's remark. If you were 150% sure, it would be appropriate to jog over the the other ref and tell him (in private) what you saw. It would be up to him to make the call (score it, ot not). I find that referee's remark arrogant and condescending. He may be more experienced that you, but he lacks professionalism and class IMO.
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Fri Nov 15, 2002, 02:24pm
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I could write the same thing marty did. Instead, I'll just say ditto!
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Fri Nov 15, 2002, 03:31pm
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I was the trail in a 2-man JV boys game last year in the same situation. I indicated the three point shot was good at the horn. My partner came to me quietly and immediately telling me that it looked like the shot was clearly late. I asked him if he was 100% sure and he said "yes." I then over-ruled myself and went to the table first and the coach second. I told the coach that my partner had a better angle on the play and he was sure that the shot was late. The coach didn't say one word and just returned to the bench.
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Fri Nov 15, 2002, 03:41pm
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Quote:
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Fri Nov 15, 2002, 03:42pm
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#1 I think Tony only replied to get his animation some more screen-time.
#2 I think quietly jogging over and giving info on a last second game deciding shot is not realistic. It's nut-check time (sorry juules), if you are sure you had better be selling it all the way to your partner and not give a crud if he hates you forever, if I am 150% sure I am going to do it, but then..I was watching my own area and didn't see it for sure...
__________________
Church Basketball "The brawl that begins with a prayer"
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Fri Nov 15, 2002, 05:05pm
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This was a play to end the second quarter, not a last second, game-deciding shot. However, if it was that situation, in both two and three man mechanics, the final decision is the responsibility of the Referee (if there is a disagreement or the timer has to be consulted). This would usually occur after the refs have conferenced, shared information, and the responsible ump disagrees with the Ref.
So, even if the Ref is the guy about to "blow" the call, the ump(s) can offer info, but the Ref has the final say. The situation is described in NFHS Basketball Officials Manual in the Basic Procedures and Mechanics sections (two and three officials).
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Fri Nov 15, 2002, 05:47pm
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Not disagreeing with what you said, Marty. My point was just that there are times when quietly going to your partner and offering info is, unfortunately, not plausible. The NFHS manual outlines letting the C official take this call, PAref asked if it was appropriate to "overrule" this official. Granted, he didn't use those words, but that is essentially what he is asking. I only suggested that if one were to do so, he had better be 150% sure, be prepared to piss somebody off, and sell the hell out of the call.
__________________
Church Basketball "The brawl that begins with a prayer"
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Mon Nov 18, 2002, 10:25pm
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He ovboiusly messed up, but you must let him sink or swim with his call. this year, i am going through a partner transition and it's tough, i don't always agree with the two of them, but we talk it over. The important thing is to remember why we are there. we are there for the players. which means the most important thing is getting the dam# call right! In the end, that is all anyone can ever ask and that is all that matters.
__________________
-If you don't take opportunity as it comes, you are lost in the sauce
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Mon Nov 18, 2002, 10:29pm
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Another Packer Backer.
Quote:
Trouble with new partner in Central Wisconsin? You must be working with Williebfree.  Welcome.
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Mon Nov 18, 2002, 10:36pm
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nope, not willie, but he be a tough one to work with. i have been there and i have done that many times before!
__________________
-If you don't take opportunity as it comes, you are lost in the sauce
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Tue Nov 19, 2002, 03:01am
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I am to understand that in Wisconsin you work with the same two officials for the entire season? Or is it just an extended period of time?
Out here, can't see same partner or same team for next nine days.
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Tue Nov 19, 2002, 07:25am
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in wisconsin, we work on a 2-man system, which sucks (i feel they should go to 3 person and so do a lot of other people who have worked 3-person college and love it.) what happened w/ me this year is I formed a triad w/ 2 other guys. so, we can pick and choose who goes where. it gives more flexibility and I love it. In Wisconsin, the partner you have is usually the partner you stick w/.
__________________
-If you don't take opportunity as it comes, you are lost in the sauce
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Tue Nov 19, 2002, 09:41am
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We have discussed this situation in detail at our meetings.
The prevailing opinion is if the basket will affect the outcome and you are 100% sure, then you should run to your partner (give the table a signal to "hold things") and discuss it, like you would a double whistle. The local opinion is anyone can wave it, but you had better be sure and be able to see ice to an eskimo.
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