Opinions needed, OBR rules

[txump81]

Dang Pete, you beat me to the punch. I have been trying to write my post between phone calls and faxes and agree with exactly what you said.

[BK47]

like Pete says, and I said it earlier in this thread. Wouldnt this be the same as a fair ball called foul? You can not go back and make the call right and place BR and runners (if any) in locations you think they would have gotten to. You just get an a$$ chewing from the OC and live with it and try not to make the same mistake again.

Byron, my question to the originator here is why is PU changing his mind? What did he see to make him think the ball was dropped or might have been dropped after he already called the BR out? Did he say "Batter Out" on habit afterwhich he realized the ball was dropped and not secured by the catcher? I know that a transfer from glove to hand is still a catch but my point is maybe thats what he saw?

[txump81]

BK, correct. Same as fair ball called foul. Eat it.

Check out my thoughts earlier, maybe PU just had a brain fart about the U3K rule and less than 2 outs because notice in the OP, you had R1 and R2 so 1B was occupied at TOP. Then afterward realized his mistake.

Impossible to know since none of us operate a 1-900 service.

[jkumpire]

Sadly, I was not at the park either, and we have two younger umpires who are umpiring younger kids.

From all I can gather after talking to the umpires, the PU called out. The coach of the offense made his kids run until some of them scored as the defense left the field. At that point the game stopped and the offensive coach came out on the crew, after the batter had reached base.

The BU saw clearly the PU was wrong, and in the conference they had, the PU realized he was wrong. How he was wrong is an open question I cannot answer. They decided they had to get the call right, and fix it. That is when they called me.

Points:

1. This is not an out/safe judgment call, a tag/no tag play or a fair/foul call. By rule a put out on the Batter or a runner has to be made, and sadly, the PU missed it. Once the PU says he misses it, it is very hard to see how you can just leave a rule error unfixed.

2. The idea of fixing calls, and getting the call right is a problem that a lot of us have with umpiring these days, and I didn't like this trend when it started. But now it is here. We have to live with it.

3. I understand the distinction some of you are making about where the ball is. If it is a High School or above game, I can live with "the ball bounced right into F2's glove (or he dropped it at his feet) so he was going to throw the BR out at 1B, inning over, sorry if I missed the call" (with the reasonable number of ejections coming after the play).

But maybe in HS, and certainly below, we cannot assume this play will be made 95%+ of the time. And the PU's biggest mistake on the play was selling out vocally so the defense left the field, so the defense could get the out.

The PU's mistake did not give the defense the opportunity for the putout, and how do you fix it? In this specific case, I am not convinced that out is the right call to fix it.

I will let you know about the result of any protest by the losing team.

[yawetag]

Does anyone else have a problem with umpires using a phone WHILE ON THE FIELD to call someone to determine how to fix a problem?

I understand these are younger kids, but I don't see how you could command any respect for the rest of this game, not to mention any future games. Make your call, clean up the mess, then call and ask AFTER the game -- it's a learning experience. Using someone else to clean up your mess doesn't make you learn. It gives you a crutch that you cal always fall on when an issue arises.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Does anyone else have a problem with umpires using a phone WHILE ON THE FIELD to call someone to determine how to fix a problem?

I do, and I missed that this is apparently what happened in the OP. Thanks for pointing it out.

[PeteBooth]

First off this is NOT a protestable situation. It is called Umpire error. No different then the PU calling a ball FOUL that was FAIR. The losing team can protest all they want but to no avail.

You keep asking - how do you fix?

Already answered. The OUT call stands UNLESS the ball was no-where near F2 after he dropped it.

Pete Booth

[jkumpire]

Thanks for your thoughts as the thread ends.

1. I have no idea how they got a cell phone, but if you look at my first post I question it as well. I believe one of the crew went off the field to get his phone.

2. There has been no protest, but Pete, this could be protested. I just disagree with your view of this play.

[MD Longhorn]

There are really two ways to look at this sitch, and I think, from reading, that this lies at the heart of why there are two completely different opinions here.

One is that PU simply blew the call, thinking the ball was caught, and call the out. This is not how I read it, but I can see reading it that way. This IS like fair ball called foul - and I agree with the interp that the umpire just has to eat this out and take whatever crap from the coach is appropriate.

The other - which is the way I read it ... is that the PU saw the non-catch and RULED incorrectly. If this is a RULES mistake, then A) yes, it is protestable and B) it is FIXABLE on the field (in fact, it MUST be fixed).

Without actually asking PU, I don't think the two views can be reconciled, and depending on the answer, BOTH are right.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

There are really two ways to look at this sitch, and I think, from reading, that this lies at the heart of why there are two completely different opinions here.

The other - which is the way I read it ... is that the PU saw the non-catch and RULED incorrectly. If this is a RULES mistake, then A) yes, it is protestable and B) it is FIXABLE on the field (in fact, it MUST be fixed).

IMO, doesn't matter which view you take. You say MUST be fixed and is protestable.

Ok tell me how are you going to fix?

You have 2 choices plus placement of runners. One of the choices is NOT a do-over.

Choice 1 - Out stands

Choice 2 Place B1 at first base.

Now the "fun part" what are you going to do with R2/R3?

The fact is the umpire made a mistake just like an erroneous Foul call -NO DIFFERENT no matter how you view this OP. Eat the call and move on.

Pete Booth

[Sven K]

If the PU didn't know the rule and blew the call because of it, is it protestable? I understand that it may not be fixable, but is whether or not a play can be "fixed" part of the requirement for a protest?