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Old Sun Jun 20, 2010, 09:54pm
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First time for me

I have not had a chance to hit the books regarding this play from earlier today.
17u, following FED rules. R1 on third base, 0 outs, 3-0 count on batter. Next pitch in the dirt (ball 4) off the catchers chest, ball rolls to his left and comes to a complete stop. R1 breaks for home, catcher gets ball throws wildly past the pitcher who is covering, into the first base dugout. Batter runner slowly walking up the line watching the play behind him. I call time from the field, as the ball rolls into the dugout. Partner at the plate never saw the ball go into the dugout. As I hustle over to my partner (batter runner is now at first) I tell him I'm 99.9% sure that we place the runner at third due to the base on ball award (1st base) and then a ball (not a pitch) being thrown into dead ball area. Partner was 100% positive, that we had a first play from the infield, so the 2 base award would be from the time of the pitch. Him being the plate and senior man, we agreed to place batter runner at second base. Neither coach said boo, all was quite, but I kept thinking did we kick it ?
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Old Sun Jun 20, 2010, 10:05pm
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JerzeeRef,

There is no "cumulative property of addition" with respect to base awards in baseball.

Should two different events occur on a given play that result in base awards, the one that is more beneficial to the offense is enforced and the other is disregarded.

Your partner was essentially correct.

JM
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Old Sun Jun 20, 2010, 10:40pm
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The "first play by an infielder" concept applies on a throw following a batted ball - N/A in the OP. The award is two bases from the TOT.
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 06:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock View Post
The "first play by an infielder" concept applies on a throw following a batted ball - N/A in the OP. The award is two bases from the TOT.
+1

Another reason for the BR to hustle down to 1B on a BB, instead of spectating like the BR in the OP. Had he been standing on 1B at the TOT, he gets 3B.
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 06:17am
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correct. same as if a swinging strike three and ball gets loose from the catcher and rolls away. BR runs towards first as catcher gets ball and throws wildly to first which ends up in the seats or DBT. If BR had not reached first yet he would only get second.
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 09:56am
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That former coach JM has turned into quite a good umpire!
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 12:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
Your partner was essentially correct.

JM
Um, sort of... right award, wrong reason. First play refers to a batted ball. This was 2 bases from Time of Throw, not Time of Pitch... in this case the same, but not always.
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 03:53pm
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mbcrowder,

That's why I said "essentially" rather than "completely".

The fact that the ball was not batted into play had absolutely no bearing on the proper award in this particular sitch, because te awards would have been identical if the catcher had been fielding a fair batted ball rather than chasing a deflected pitch.

You would have to have an R1 for the distinction to come into play, and even with an R1 it would be "rare" for it to make a difference.

And, he got the award correct.

JM
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 04:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
mbcrowder,

That's why I said "essentially" rather than "completely".

The fact that the ball was not batted into play had absolutely no bearing on the proper award in this particular sitch, because te awards would have been identical if the catcher had been fielding a fair batted ball rather than chasing a deflected pitch.
OK, that part's just completely untrue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
You would have to have an R1 for the distinction to come into play, and even with an R1 it would be "rare" for it to make a difference.

And, he got the award correct.

JM
Well, I did say sort of... here's the problem with saying partner was essentially correct though. "Partner was 100% positive, that we had a first play from the infield, so the 2 base award would be from the time of the pitch."

Based just on what partner said, partner was also 100% wrong. The wrong answer just happened to put the runner on the right base in this case.

And unless you're changing the BR into R1 mid-play, it's not true that your would have to have an R1 for the distinction to come into play. The more important distinction is that since this is TOT and not TOP - where the BR was when the THROW was made is important. If the OP walks away from this thread with just your answer - that partner was correct, he will not even notice where BR is the next time this comes up, and he will get this wrong in a similar but slightly altered situation. If BR is to first base when the throw initiates (a little uncommon in this exact OP, but entirely possible if this was a bad overthrow and it was R2 trying to score, or R3 was slow, etc) THAT is when the distinction comes into play.
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 06:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp View Post
That former coach JM has turned into quite a good umpire!
LakeErieUmp,

That's not what the 4th assistant coach of the losing team of my second game yesterday said.

JM
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Old Mon Jun 21, 2010, 06:30pm
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Mike,

Apparently, I didn't make my point very clearly. I will "stipulate" that it is technically incorrect to consider this a TOP award, because, as you suggest, it is properly and technically a TOT award.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder View Post
OK, that part's just completely untrue...
Bear with me a minute, but my statement was absolutely true within the rules of baseball.

When a ball is thrown out of play by the defense, runners are awarded 2 bases. The "starting point" for the award is either TOP or TOT. So, regardless of the circumstances, any R2 or R3 is awarded home. The BR is going to get either 2B, or, if he had already reached 1B at the time the wild throw was released, 3B - regardless of whether he became a runner on a batted ball or a pitch that was ball 4 or an U3K.

So, unless you've got an R1, the TOP/TOT distinction is not material to ruling on the play in this sitch.

If you DID have an R1, and he fell down or was stealing & the batter hit a fly ball that he thought would be caught and was returning, or something like that, and both the BR & R1 were between 1B and 2B at the time the throw was released, then the distinction would matter - oh, wait. No, it wouldn't.

I understand that there ARE scenarios where the TOP/TOT ditinction could make a difference in determining awards. But I'd be hard pressed to come up with a scenario where the ball stayed in the infield and it mattered. I guess a run-down could do it, but, it'll be obvious.

JM
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