First time for me

[UmpJM]

mbcrowder,

That's why I said "essentially" rather than "completely".

The fact that the ball was not batted into play had absolutely no bearing on the proper award in this particular sitch, because te awards would have been identical if the catcher had been fielding a fair batted ball rather than chasing a deflected pitch.

You would have to have an R1 for the distinction to come into play, and even with an R1 it would be "rare" for it to make a difference.

And, he got the award correct.

JM

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mbcrowder,

That's why I said "essentially" rather than "completely".

The fact that the ball was not batted into play had absolutely no bearing on the proper award in this particular sitch, because te awards would have been identical if the catcher had been fielding a fair batted ball rather than chasing a deflected pitch.

OK, that part's just completely untrue...

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

You would have to have an R1 for the distinction to come into play, and even with an R1 it would be "rare" for it to make a difference.

And, he got the award correct.

JM

Well, I did say sort of... here's the problem with saying partner was essentially correct though. "Partner was 100% positive, that we had a first play from the infield, so the 2 base award would be from the time of the pitch."

Based just on what partner said, partner was also 100% wrong. The wrong answer just happened to put the runner on the right base in this case.

And unless you're changing the BR into R1 mid-play, it's not true that your would have to have an R1 for the distinction to come into play. The more important distinction is that since this is TOT and not TOP - where the BR was when the THROW was made is important. If the OP walks away from this thread with just your answer - that partner was correct, he will not even notice where BR is the next time this comes up, and he will get this wrong in a similar but slightly altered situation. If BR is to first base when the throw initiates (a little uncommon in this exact OP, but entirely possible if this was a bad overthrow and it was R2 trying to score, or R3 was slow, etc) THAT is when the distinction comes into play.

[UmpJM]

Mike,

Apparently, I didn't make my point very clearly. I will "stipulate" that it is technically incorrect to consider this a TOP award, because, as you suggest, it is properly and technically a TOT award.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

OK, that part's just completely untrue...

Bear with me a minute, but my statement was absolutely true within the rules of baseball.

When a ball is thrown out of play by the defense, runners are awarded 2 bases. The "starting point" for the award is either TOP or TOT. So, regardless of the circumstances, any R2 or R3 is awarded home. The BR is going to get either 2B, or, if he had already reached 1B at the time the wild throw was released, 3B - regardless of whether he became a runner on a batted ball or a pitch that was ball 4 or an U3K.

So, unless you've got an R1, the TOP/TOT distinction is not material to ruling on the play in this sitch.

If you DID have an R1, and he fell down or was stealing & the batter hit a fly ball that he thought would be caught and was returning, or something like that, and both the BR & R1 were between 1B and 2B at the time the throw was released, then the distinction would matter - oh, wait. No, it wouldn't.

I understand that there ARE scenarios where the TOP/TOT ditinction could make a difference in determining awards. But I'd be hard pressed to come up with a scenario where the ball stayed in the infield and it mattered. I guess a run-down could do it, but, it'll be obvious.

JM