Catch question- Bizzaro world play

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by yawetag

When he throws to a base and throws it out of play, how many bases are you awarding?

Two. All throws from infielders or outfielders that go out of play are two base awards. Only throws (or any other cause of the ball to go into DBT) that originate from a pitcher on his plate are one base awards.

[bluehair]

Originally Posted by yawetag

When he throws to a base and throws it out of play, how many bases are you awarding?

Originally we were discussing an outfielder juggling a flyball to confuse a tag-up. This is no problem since tag-up goes by first touch.

Then we were discussing what if an outfielder juggles a ball on purpose in order to get a cheap DP. I wouldn't allow it and suggested a method to prevent it. You want to play a game of "damned if you do/damned if you don't" with me. OK, I'll play. You tell me how you'd handle it, rulemeister.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by asdf

How about we use a little common sense and understand that this would be nothing more than an attempt to (contrary to why rules are created) put one team at an unreasonable disadvantage.

So. . .it's unreasonable to expect runners to know that they can leave base after the caught fly ball is first touched???

Originally Posted by asdf

My experience tells me that this is an intentional act that circumvents the intent of the rules by creating an unfair advantage to one team.

It may be intentional, but it doesn't circumvent the intent of the rules because they've been specifically written to prevent exactly this. This is only an unfair advantage if you also consider unequal rules knowledge among the players to be an unfair advantage.

Leave the ball live, and rule on whatever plays transpire. There is no need to kill it and/or place runners.

[MD Longhorn]

celebur, you must be envisioning something different than we are. So I'll spell it out.

Imagine a medium to shallow fly to left. Bases loaded, 1 out. If LF catches this and R1 takes off, he's dead meat. So he stays. LF then begins this intentional juggle thing - not catching it, but maintaining control. If R1 takes off after the touch, LF can simply catch and nail this guy at home. So he stays. LF get the ball all the way to shortstop, drops it, and gets an easy DP. Further, all your concentration seems to be on R1 - say R1 does scamper home, but R2 and R3 would be morons to try to advance on the touch. LF gets the ball all the way to shortstop and drops it - DPing R2 and R3. R1's run doesn't count now anyway.

THIS is the scenario we're discussing and saying we'd (by various methods depending on who is posting) find a way to prevent the INTENT of the rules from being circumvented. And this has nothing to do with rules knowledge by the players or coaches... assume that all players involved know ALL the rules...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bluehair

Then we were discussing what if an outfielder juggles a ball on purpose in order to get a cheap DP. I wouldn't allow it and suggested a method to prevent it. You want to play a game of "damned if you do/damned if you don't" with me. OK, I'll play. You tell me how you'd handle it, rulemeister.

I don't see how you prevent a DP here. The runners will either tag up or not.

1. If the runners tag up, they can leave after the fielder first touches the ball. No second out is possible whether or not he catches it.

2. If the runners don't tag up, then they're going halfway or returning to the base. If the fielder juggles the ball, he'll end by catching it or dropping it.

(a) If he catches it, the BR is out and the other runner goes back to his base;
(b) if he drops it, the BR will be on first and the other runner liable to be forced out. Either way, no second out is possible.

Of course, there's always the possibility of stupidity by the offense, but the rules do not permit you to call time to prevent stupidity. I think the juggling bit is stupidity by the defense, since they could end up with no outs on the play. But I'm not calling time to prevent that, either.

If the defense wanted to do it and they fooled the offense somehow, it would be legal trickery, like a properly executed hidden ball trick. You simply have no rationale, either in the rules or the "spirit of the game," for your proposed method of handling this play.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't see how you prevent a DP here. The runners will either tag up or not.

1. If the runners tag up, they can leave after the fielder first touches the ball. No second out is possible whether or not he catches it.

2. If the runners don't tag up, then they're going halfway or returning to the base. If the fielder juggles the ball, he'll end by catching it or dropping it.

(a) If he catches it, the BR is out and the other runner goes back to his base;
(b) if he drops it, the BR will be on first and the other runner liable to be forced out. Either way, no second out is possible.

There's more than one forced runner in the play being discussed. These runners (and not the BR) are the ones who would be involved in any DP.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's more than one forced runner in the play being discussed. These runners (and not the BR) are the ones who would be involved in any DP.

OK. If the defense can pull it off, good for them. You're not saying it's right to kill this play, are you Bob?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

(a) If he catches it, the BR is out and the other runner goes back to his base;
(b) if he drops it, the BR will be on first and the other runner liable to be forced out. Either way, no second out is possible.

If you are assuming 1 runner on base, yes --- there's no issue. That's not what we're discussing. With Runners on 1st and 2nd or bases loaded, you can DEFINITELY get 2 easy outs by juggling it in and dropping it. THAT is what we're discussing.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

If you are assuming 1 runner on base, yes --- there's no issue. That's not what we're discussing. With Runners on 1st and 2nd or bases loaded, you can DEFINITELY get 2 easy outs by juggling it in and dropping it. THAT is what we're discussing.

If it were easy, we'd see it all the time. TWP.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

OK. If the defense can pull it off, good for them. You're not saying it's right to kill this play, are you Bob?

If the outfileder juggles the ball all the way to the infield, he just became an infielder and I'd apply the "infielder intentionally drops a fly ball" rule to the play.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the outfileder juggles the ball all the way to the infield, he just became an infielder and I'd apply the "infielder intentionally drops a fly ball" rule to the play.

That won't work because the ball hasn't been dropped (yet).

I have a catch with the first intentional juggle. It's a voluntary release.

[DG]

Definitely TWP. R3 tags and scores if ball was hit deep enough, and if not there was no point to juggling. R3 was only runner in original post. More were introduced on post 10. With R1 and R2, they will advance 1/3 (R2) and 1/2 (R1) and at best you get one of them if R7 drops the ball and throw ahead of the runner, or maybe you get R3 at the plate if he hesitated. But I don't see 2 outs.

But let's go really TWP, as we already have, say ball is not hit deep enough for R3 to tag and score and F7 juggles the ball all the way to infield and bases loaded and no outs and he then let's it drop. Triple is possible now, we going to allow?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by DG

Definitely TWP. R3 tags and scores if ball was hit deep enough, and if not there was no point to juggling. R3 was only runner in original post. More were introduced on post 10. With R1 and R2, they will advance 1/3 (R2) and 1/2 (R1) and at best you get one of them if R7 drops the ball and throw ahead of the runner, or maybe you get R3 at the plate if he hesitated. But I don't see 2 outs.

But let's go really TWP, as we already have, say ball is not hit deep enough for R3 to tag and score and F7 juggles the ball all the way to infield and bases loaded and no outs and he then let's it drop. Triple is possible now, we going to allow?

Nope.....

[asdf]

Originally Posted by celebur

So. . .it's unreasonable to expect runners to know that they can leave base after the caught fly ball is first touched???




It may be intentional, but it doesn't circumvent the intent of the rules because they've been specifically written to prevent exactly this. This is only an unfair advantage if you also consider unequal rules knowledge among the players to be an unfair advantage.

Leave the ball live, and rule on whatever plays transpire. There is no need to kill it and/or place runners.

1) Never said it wasn't. It is however, unreasonable to expect the runners to watch a fielder intentionally juggle a ball for the sole purpose of getting a cheap double or triple play.

2) What rule specifically allows this action to take place?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by asdf

2) What rule specifically allows this action to take place?

You've got to be kidding. No rule specifically allows any action to take place. The rules prohibit certain defined actions (OBS, INT, illegal bats, etc.), and allow everything else.