Does the run count?

[Illini_Ref]

I know this has more than likely been discussed numerous times here before, but indulge me please.

R1 at third, two outs. B1 hits a grounder that is thrown to first. BR misses first and is diving back, making this a tag play. F3 tags BR as he dives back to first.

Does the run count? Is the BR considered to have acquired first since he passed it and is returning. O?R is this an out before the BR TOUCHES first base

[TwoBits]

Score the run. The batter-runner has reached first base in your scenario. Do not score the run if the defensive team appeals the missed first base either before or after the tag.

[bob jenkins]

Does BR just "over run" first? Then no run scores. The tag is the appeal.

Does BR round first? Then score the run unless / until there's an appeal.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Does BR just "over run" first? Then no run scores. The tag is the appeal.

Agreed if it is obvious the defense is attempting to tag the runner because he missed first base.

[Illini_Ref]

Bob,
I was guessing that your answer was correct since the rule says "before TOUCHING first base" and not "before REACHING first base".

I was just confused because I have always subscribed to the theory that if a BR overran first without touching and had started to return to touch, then the fielder had to tag him. Is this at least accurate?

If the BR misses first and is diving back, can an appeal without a tag then be granted as an out?

[Illini_Ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Does BR just "over run" first? Then no run scores. The tag is the appeal.

Does BR round first? Then score the run unless / until there's an appeal.

What do you mean by "until there's an appeal"? Do you mean that if a BR round first, but misses the base and is subsequently tagged when returning, then the run is wiped off when the appeal is granted successfully? If the defense just makes the tag and runs off the field then you count the run? I'm guessing if it isn't obvious what they are doing then you assume they are not appealing. If they make the tag and then say "he missed the base", then you wipe off the run?

Why is there a difference between rounding and overrunning? The rule says before the batter-runner touches first base.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Illini_Ref

What do you mean by "until there's an appeal"? Do you mean that if a BR round first, but misses the base and is subsequently tagged when returning, then the run is wiped off when the appeal is granted successfully?

Why is there a difference between rounding and overrunning? The rule says before the batter-runner touches first base.

A runner who passes a base is assumed to have touched it, until there's an appeal. So, in both your cases, the run temporarily scores.

If the BR overruns first and is tagged while diving back in, then it's obvious (I'll agree that there might be an exception here) that he missed first, and that the tag is an appeal. SInce there was an appeal, the BR is out before touching the base, and the run does not count.

If the BR rounds first, then is tagged while diving back in, the tag is (likley) not an obvious appeal. Rather, it's a tag on a runner who is off the base. So, the run still scores (for the time being). If the defense now properly appeals the miss (Roder's "no subsequent appeal" not withstanding), then the appeal takes precedence, the BR is out before touching first, and the run does not count.

[Illini_Ref]

Got it. Thanks.

[greymule]

Roder's "no subsequent appeal" not withstanding

The OP does strike a parallel to Question 6 on the quiz at Roder's link.

Baseball Quiz

Just an aside: in one of the strangest wrinkles in all rule sets, in ASA softball, the defense can get one out or the other but not the tag and then the appeal. In other words, if on a two-out force play (including BR at 1B) the runner passes but misses the bag while the run scores, and then starts to scramble back to the base, the defense can of course tag him out. But to nullify the run, they must accompany the tag with an obvious appeal of the miss. Without that appeal, they are simply tagging a runner off the base, and then they cannot appeal the miss for an advantageous fourth out. Further, there is no "vicinity of the base" clause; a miss is a miss, and can be appealed immediately.