No coaches on field?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

no, i know what you're getting at...but if all are restricted, can the team put a player in the 3B coaching box?...sounds like a gong show to me.

That could have happened with or without this new rule. If a coach was restricted (and there were no other adult coaches present) than the coach could not be on the field. And I have seen players used as base coaches often in my years and even at third base.

Peace

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well you can look at all the casebook plays under 3.3.1 and it is clear that the rule makes it clear that the actions of an assistant can restrict a HC to the dugout. And the intent of the rule is to make the HC restricted and not allow a coach to be on the field if such action is taken under this new rule. And there are people that have said that "It would not be a good thing to have a coach not on the field" when the rule is clear that is the result if this rule is violated.

I do think the rule is unclear on some levels, but it is clear to me the NF wanted this penalty to be severe so the HC could prevent assistants from getting out of hand.

Peace

The gymanastics and gyrations you go through to try to avoid being wrong are incredible.

Tough it out big guy, you were wrong. Move on.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

The gymanastics and gyrations you go through to try to avoid being wrong are incredible.

Tough it out big guy, you were wrong. Move on.

I am a multiple sport official. This rule came from other sports (basketball and football have similar rules). In basketball the head coach is the only person that has the coaching box privileged. Once those privileges are lost, no one can use them. In football, if anyone violates the sideline rules, all penalties goes toward the head coach and can result in ejection even if the head coach is not directly responsible for the specific penalized act. Most baseball coaches I know are coaches from other sports. They tend to use other sports as their way of understanding other rules. And I am waiting for a coach a restriction when the rules are not explicit for such thing at this time. And if that was the case, then the interpretations should make it clear like they do in other aspects when this rule does not apply. Right now they claim mostly when it applies and even in one case play the situation is not dealing directly with an argument, but requires everyone to be restricted to the dugout (e.g. 3.3.1 Situation T).

This is like many new rules where the intent is one thing, but what they put in writing is another. The problem is people like you want everything to be about right and wrong and do not want to acknowledge that if things were clear, someone (not me BTW) would not have suggested that a head coach would have been restricted for something that the interpretations did not address. All the NF could have done in this situation was create a play where it was clear the assistant coach is not under their jurisdiction and they would not be restricted to the dugout and all of this would be clearer. Previously when a coach was restricted it was very clear what a coach could and could not do. In this case they are making the head coach responsible, but not really responsible if they do not fit these very narrow standards.

Peace

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So was I right or wrong?

Hey, you posed the question.

Don't get all defensive if somebody answers it.

The rule is clear to me, and I don't need to even consider what they do in football or basketball to muddy things up. The new rule is simple and simply written. It has been clearly and concisely interpreted in the pre-season NFHS publications.

There's no need to guess at what you think they really meant. The rule and interpretations are about as unambiguous as they could possibly be.

The case play you cite (3.3.1T) has nothing to do with this new rule and nothing to do with anyone being "restricted to the bench". This case play is referring to participants being in their required areas during the game, NOT about anyone being "restricted to the bench" as a punitive measure for some misconduct.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Hey, you posed the question.

Don't get all defensive if somebody answers it.

Actually no one has answered the question that I am asking, because I am not asking the question only based on the rule, but the intent of the rule. And it is not being defensive to feel that there is a hole in the wording.

Originally Posted by BretMan

The rule is clear to me, and I don't need to even consider what they do in football or basketball to muddy things up. The new rule is simple and simply written. It has been clearly and concisely interpreted in the pre-season NFHS publications.

I do care what other sports do, because the NF has said as much when they create rules. All committees confer to make sure they are following a general philosophy. For example the NF concussion policy is the same across almost all their sports, not just a football only rule where this issue is often more prevalent. The different committees meet to make sure they follow similar rules and this rule in my opinion did not come from a baseball way of thinking as no other code has such a rule.

Originally Posted by BretMan

There's no need to guess at what you think they really meant. The rule and interpretations are about as unambiguous as they could possibly be.

The case play you cite (3.3.1T) has nothing to do with this new rule and nothing to do with anyone being "restricted to the bench". This case play is referring to participants being in their required areas during the game, NOT about anyone being "restricted to the bench" as a punitive measure for some misconduct.

If it is, then why are there questions about when a coach should be restricted?

We will just have to disagree on this. Case play 3.3.1T says to restrict the coaching staff to the dugout for an issue that is not related to an assistant coach arguing a judgment call. And this is a new case play that would not be there without this new rule. I did not suggest I was going to make a coach be restricted to the dugout for anything other than the basic wording, but it is clear to me that there was an attempt to use a philosophy from another sport (as there is no such rule from NCAA or MLB Baseball, but more consistent with basketball and football rules when it comes to conduct) and probably did not include situations where the rule would not obviously apply. And this was a discussion I had with people before the season and they had similar questions or concerns. The casebook in my opinion would have been clearer. And the fact someone suggested that an HC should be restricted in a situation where the rules might not completely suggest, only illustrates that confusion. I would not be surprised if next year there is a clarification or editorial change in the rule.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually no one has answered the question that I am asking, because I am not asking the question only based on the rule, but the intent of the rule. And it is not being defensive to feel that there is a hole in the wording.

Could you please restate the question, because I think it's been (correctly) answered.

We will just have to disagree on this. Case play 3.3.1T says to restrict the coaching staff to the dugout for an issue that is not related to an assistant coach arguing a judgment call.

No, it doesn't. It says to eject (not restrict) the offender (not the coaching staff).

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually no one has answered the question that I am asking, because I am not asking the question only based on the rule, but the intent of the rule. And it is not being defensive to feel that there is a hole in the wording.

It's been answered. You either don't like the answer, don't understand the answer or are still trying to dance yourt way out of being wrong.

If it is, then why are there questions about when a coach should be restricted?

Because you're not the only one who was wrong.

We will just have to disagree on this. Case play 3.3.1T says to restrict the coaching staff to the dugout for an issue that is not related to an assistant coach arguing a judgment call.

Now you're making stuff up. It does not say that.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

It's been answered. You either don't like the answer, don't understand the answer or are still trying to dance yourt way out of being wrong.

Actually the NF has not answered the question. That was the only group that can answer the question and it is not in their literature that I have seen. Not sure what that has to do with liking the answer. I know this sometimes disappoints many, but the people here are not the end all or the final say on rulings. But you knew that right?

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Because you're not the only one who was wrong.

So you cannot raise a question of what the intent of the rules are? I will remember that next time any rule is developed and the next year they change the wording to "clarify" what they meant. It happens every year in just about every sport I am associated with and why these boards often exist in the first place. But then again, we do not want to upset you.

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Now you're making stuff up. It does not say that.

Whatever you say man.

Peace

[Matt]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You must did not read the casebook.

Peace

Yes, I did. Obviously more than you have, too.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Matt

Yes, I did. Obviously more than you have, too.

Yep.

Peace

[MrUmpire]

Mr. Rutledge, you have outdone yourself. Both Bob Jenkins and I have pointed out accurately they you misquoted a situation in your feeble attempt to appear justifed in your incorrect view.

And when caught, undeniably, misrerpresenting a written situation that is available for all to see, you respond with:

Whatever you say man.

Had you any crediblity left, it is gone.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Mr. Rutledge, you have outdone yourself. Both Bob Jenkins and I have pointed out accurately they you misquoted a situation in your feeble attempt to appear justifed in your incorrect view.

And when caught, undeniably, misrerpresenting a written situation that is available for all to see, you respond with:



Had you any crediblity left, it is gone.

This is the baseball board and honestly I did not expect much of a serious conversation with this. Also unlike you I actually know Bob Jenkins and we do not agree on everything. Does not mean anything as most people I know do not agree on everything either. Also this is a discussion board, not a place I am trying to gain credibility. If it is, then I will stop officiating all together if I need that credibility here.

You continue with your opinions or lack of ability to see the bigger picture. I will not have to work with you so it really does not matter either way now does it?

Peace

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also unlike you I actually know Bob Jenkins and we do not agree on everything. Does not mean anything as most people I know do not agree on everything either.

Try reading this very slowly. This has NOTHING to do with agreeing with Bob Jenkins. What has been pointed out is that you misquoted, or misrepresented, or lied about how a situation was worded. It doesn't matter that it was Bob or me or Elmer Fudd who pointed this out.

This is not opinion. It is verifiable. Anyone can look up the situation and then read what you claimed it said (said, not meant) and it will be clear that you are wrong.

Be a man.

[cviverito]

After reading through all of the points made under 3.3.1 (SITUATIONS A - RR) I think we can come to the following conclusions for the 2010 season:

1. HC's or AC's can be restricted or ejected, and that each occurrence must be judged on its own merit
2. The AC and HC are both restricted if the AC leaves his position to argue a judgment call
3. The intent of this ruling is to keep the AC's from arguing judgment calls
3. The purpose of this rule is to make the HC culpable for managing the actions of the AC's
4. None of the case plays for baseball suggest, directly or indirectly, that AC's are ever restricted after the HC is restricted and/or ejected

As for deciphering what or why the NFHS or state associations actually means to say in the writing of the new rules. I leave that to the 2011 clarifications. For now I will go with was was clearly written in the book, the pubs, and stated at the rules interpretations meeting. For what that is read points 1 - 4 above.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Try reading this very slowly. This has NOTHING to do with agreeing with Bob Jenkins. What has been pointed out is that you misquoted, or misrepresented, or lied about how a situation was worded. It doesn't matter that it was Bob or me or Elmer Fudd who pointed this out.

If it has nothing to do with Bob, why did you bring him up? Last time I checked I did not ask Bob’s opinion. Seriously, if you do not want something to be about something, you do not bring up the issue or person.

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

This is not opinion. It is verifiable. Anyone can look up the situation and then read what you claimed it said (said, not meant) and it will be clear that you are wrong.

Be a man.

Try reading this slowly. I believe that the intent of the rule was to restrict actions above what the plays suggest. Now you do not have to believe that, but that is what I think and why I raised the issue. If you do not want to accept that, then keep talking about it over and over and over again here. But I stand by what I feel and feel this is no different than other rules where they wanted to take action on something, but did not make it clear across the board when and how this might be applied. Because all they had to do is create a play that said that the HC would not be restricted if they were thrown out. But all they did was create about 4 plays that said the same thing and made no distinction between what might be the penalty if there is a problem with the head coach. And the very reason this issue has come up more than once already and most people walk away debating.

And I knew I could not have this discussion with baseball umpires as usual. There were two rules brought up in football season this past year and those individuals dissected, debated, argued over the intent or the reasons for one very poorly written rule and another rule that was somewhat controversial. But hey, cannot do that here, maybe that is why many like yourself cannot handle a coach debating with you and throwing everyone out is a badge of honor. Keep up the good work.

Peace