pitcher tosses glove with ball

[cviverito]

Looking for a rules reference for NCAA. Fielder gloves batted or thrown ball and it lodges in his glove. He tosses the ball and glove combination to another fielder in order to complete a force or a tag.

I am ruling live ball umpire the result. But I am getting a lot of opposition from other umpires. The only rule I have to support my decision is under rule 6.4.d: which eliminates a pitched ball lodged in a catchers glove from becoming dead. It does not deal with a batted or thrown ball.

I think the opposition comes from the HS rule, which is a literal and complete interpretation of the word "equipment" and detailed in the case book (5.1.1, Situation Q). But again, I am looking for an NCAA rule to support or oppose my ruling. Anyone?

[dash_riprock]

You have it right. Ask the other umpires to show you the rule that makes the ball dead.

[cviverito]

Rip - thanks for that. I did challenge them and they are spouting a bunch of non-relevant shtuff instigating more futile debate. I have no doubt I am right. I am asking for support for two reasons:

1. To shut them up
2. I may be on the field with them someday

Thing is...I've scoured the rules book but cannot find a direct statement. I don't think it exists.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by cviverito

Rip - thanks for that. I did challenge them and they are spouting a bunch of non-relevant shtuff instigating more futile debate. I have no doubt I am right. I am asking for support for two reasons:

1. To shut them up
2. I may be on the field with them someday

Thing is...I've scoured the rules book but cannot find a direct statement. I don't think it exists.

Only FED has it as a dead ball and 2 base award.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Only FED has it as a dead ball and 2 base award.

This may be where they are pulling it from.

[cviverito]

GA Ump - I get that. I know the fed rule is different. To satisfy the doubters, I need an NCAA rules reference. What I have shown them is not good enough because it does not specifically say that a ball lodged in a glove is still live. Of course - it does not say it is dead either, but again...that's not good enough. I understand the ruling by looking at it as a disjunctive syllogism...which can be a tough concept to grasp...not to mention spell

[justanotherblue]

Ask them for the definition of a tag. Fed is the only rule set that punishes the defense for this.

[cviverito]

Page 39. Tag: Section 74. The action of a fielder in touching a base with any part of the body while holding the ball securely in the hand or glove or touching a runner with the ball or with the glove while holding the ball securely and firmly in that hand or glove.

Yeah...I see what you mean. "the glove" and/or "that glove" does not distinguish between "his" glove and another. So, logically, if it is not specified it applies to all gloves the ball may be in and the fielder may be holding.

I get it...I hope they will.

[UmpJM]

Chris,

The BRD treats this as a "point not covered" in the NCAA rules and says to "Treat as in OBR" - which, as you already know, means "keep it live and rule on the play".

There is nothing in the text of the NCAA rules that specifically addresses the question.

JM

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by cviverito

I understand the ruling by looking at it as a disjunctive syllogism...

Don't be coming in here as a newcomer and then start throwing around stuff like disjunctive syllogism. I mean, where do you think you are?

Besides, isn't disjunctive syllogism an oxymoron?

[cviverito]

Thanks JM (aka 'Yoda') - Now I can take that BRD note to...never mind.

But this is exactly what I need - it truely is a point not covered.

Hey Finn - disjunctive syllogism is a fancy way of saying 'process of elimination'. So it's not an oxymoron. "Blind umpire"...that's an oxymoron

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by cviverito

GA Ump - I get that. I know the fed rule is different.

I simply meant that they may be applying the FED rule to NCAA. When, we all know FED = Calvinball.

I'm kind of surprised that they would apply one rule set to another without the explicit written part of it or official interpretation saying something to that effect. And, if they aren't, then I'm surprised b/c I have seen several clips and games of the pitcher tossing his glove to F3.

Why do we try to put/say more is there when it isn't? Interesting.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Chris,

The BRD treats this as a "point not covered" in the NCAA rules and says to "Treat as in OBR" - which, as you already know, means "keep it live and rule on the play".

There is nothing in the text of the NCAA rules that specifically addresses the question.

JM

The NCAA has said something to the effect of "if it's not covered, use OBR" (exactly who, where and how this was said I can't recall).

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The NCAA has said something to the effect of "if it's not covered, use OBR" (exactly who, where and how this was said I can't recall).

2009 Rules - page 11 - should set the stage:

NCAA baseball rules essentially are the same as for professional baseball;
however, there are some safety-related differences—some minor and a few
major—of which participants should be aware.

For the issue at hand:

MLBUM (2009) Para 5.10 says the ball remaims alive and in play,

[johnnyg08]

That's what I've seen too...only a penalty in FED.