LLWS Player Conduct

[brandda]

I'm curious as to others opinions on this. In a couple of threads I have seen references to the umpires' performance in the LLWS, but I have not yet seen anyone talk about the latitude that the umpires are giving the players in terms of their conduct.

The LL rulebook gives umpires the explicit right to eject players for unsportsmanlike conduct. So far I have seen players do everything from victory dances to shot calling to outright taunting of opposing pitchers and as yet the unmpires have done nothing.

This baffles me. If the kids in our league behaved like that, I would toss them immediately and without discussion. They of course know this and therefore don't do it, but there does not seem to be any such constraints on the players in the series.

So several questions. Am I just an old fuddy duddy who is out of touch and overreacting? If not, then who should be held accountable for this? To me this is part of the umpires' area to police to maintain game control, but these umpires don't seem to feel so.

[senior]

David:

No, you're not an old fuddy duddy, but you are part of a vanishing breed. Every year there are fewer folks who respect the game for what it's been, (real baseball), and more who expect it to be entertainment.

I'm sure the tournament directors will brief the teams on expected behavior next year. The question of why it wasn't done this year may lead to some interesting discussions.

I hate to see "hot-dogging" as much as the next guy, but in our current society it takes a strong message in advance to keep the game on the line of a normal athletic contest. The kids see all the poor examples on TV, movies, at school, etc., and develop an attitude that believes it's normal to be an eccentric, rather than a serious, dedicated player.

Yes, the Harlem coach could have done a much better job of controlling behavior, but maybe he wasn't expecting the various exhibitions of showmanship, either.

senior

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by brandda

I'm curious as to others opinions on this. In a couple of threads I have seen references to the umpires' performance in the LLWS, but I have not yet seen anyone talk about the latitude that the umpires are giving the players in terms of their conduct.

The LL rulebook gives umpires the explicit right to eject players for unsportsmanlike conduct. So far I have seen players do everything from victory dances to shot calling to outright taunting of opposing pitchers and as yet the unmpires have done nothing.

This baffles me. If the kids in our league behaved like that, I would toss them immediately and without discussion. They of course know this and therefore don't do it, but there does not seem to be any such constraints on the players in the series.

So several questions. Am I just an old fuddy duddy who is out of touch and overreacting? If not, then who should be held accountable for this? To me this is part of the umpires' area to police to maintain game control, but these umpires don't seem to feel so.

IMO, the LLWS is being treated no differently than the World Series, NBA Finals, Stanly Cup Finals or the Super Bowl. Officials give more leeway to players during these times.

Also, IMO the main problem is that TODAY the game doesn't take care of itself like when we played.

Let's take this "hot dog" issue for a minute. In our day, this would be a non issue because the next time this player came up to bat guess where the pitch would be. Today if you do this holy h**l would break loose and that IMO is the BIG difference bewteen Yesterday and Today.

Baseball unlike the "other" major sports has become to proper which is why these type tactics make headlines.

The other thing that I don't know for certain is that it seems on the surface anyway that the LLWS umpires don't have much authority which could be a major problem.

The World Series Director or whatever you want to call this person has NO business being on the field telling the Harlem Manager that this type of behavior is unacceptable. IMO that's Blues job.

As soon as we enter the confines of the field is when our jurisdiction begins and no-one should tell us or instruct us how to conduct a game. That part is called Umpire evaluation or rating. If someone thinks I can't control a game then so be it - Tell me UP FRONT but if I earned the right to be there then allow me and my other umpires to Run the Game

To sum up, I think in all BIG Type games officials give some leeway, however, I agree the Umpires on the field should take more control of the situation because if some of these type antics were done in the regular season, bedlam might have arsien.

Pete Booth

[Bfair]

Originally posted by PeteBooth


Let's take this "hot dog" issue for a minute. In our day, this would be a non issue because the next time this player came up to bat guess where the pitch would be. Today if you do this holy h**l would break loose and that IMO is the BIG difference bewteen Yesterday and Today.

I disagree with you, Pete.
When teams "send messages" to such hot dogs they can't do so in situations where the ultimate message sent may hurt themselves moreso than their opponents. That is, you can't always send that message in close, big games. These teams have worked hard to get where they are, and the game is more important than retaliation for some nimrod act an opponent displays. I don't know if there have been situations where messages could have been sent without doing more damage to yourself. Additionally, I don't know if it was done "in our day" at this age level. I think the entire concept is one picked up at a later age.

While the issues that have occurred at the LLWS do not represent good sportsmanship, I've seen nothing that I would have ejected anyone for without warning as a result of the action. Several incidents certainly would have drawn warnings from me if I was umpiring. The incidents I saw were in separate games, likely with different crews. Without a league directive to the contrary, crews shouldn't go onto the field with a chip on their shoulder to eject without warning because an incident occurred in a previous game.

It's a shame, however, that an administrator has to address the issue rather than the games umpires.
I doubt if any responsible adult condones that type of sportsmanship.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[brandda]

Freix - You make a good point and maybe you give the extra leash here because it is the series and issue the warning, but I have not seen them even doing that. I guess our league is different, but we don't need the warning because it is understood by all that that kind of behavior will not be tolerated.

As much as I enjoy watching those games, I am beginning to believe that they should not be televised. You have to wonder how much of this would be going on without the TV being on them.

[Porch Dog]

FYI... The coach for the Harlem team berated his players immediately after they entered the dugout. You could hear him tell them that the umpire told him there would be ejections if the scene was repeated. If you noticed a few minutes later another Harlem player homered and the players conducted themselves considerably more sportsmanlike.
And now you know the rest of the story. Porch Dog

[Mike M]

The mere fact that we are able to watch all (well more than 50% of the qualifying games) leading up to LLWS Championship game speaks volume on things have changed. Unfortunately, the amount of sports coverage has saturated the airwaves and today's youth gets to watch displays of over the top celebrations in baseball, basketball and football.

Once the toothpaste is out of the tube you can not put it back.

[greymule]

Do I remember correctly that in at least one of those LL games, an umpire was doing some kind of dance with two other people between innings? That guy is supposed to warn the participants about proper behavior?

[brandda]

I saw that too. He embarrassed the whole profession.

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by greymule
Do I remember correctly that in at least one of those LL games, an umpire was doing some kind of dance with two other people between innings? That guy is supposed to warn the participants about proper behavior?

I guess you've missed the umpires doing YMCA at the regionals and the LLWS too.

What's the big deal??

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by greymule
Do I remember correctly that in at least one of those LL games, an umpire was doing some kind of dance with two other people between innings? That guy is supposed to warn the participants about proper behavior?

I can't speak specifically for LL or the LLWS, but often the umpire is *asked* to participate in some of those events by the powers-that-be. You'll note that players participated in some of those songs / dances as well.

You'll see this at the pro minor-league level as well -- the umpire dances, the mascot "steals" an opposing player's glove, etc.

Surely you can tell the difference between someone participating in a event that's supposed to be fun and crowd-pleasing and an individual trying to show up the other team (or another participant).

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Porch Dog
FYI... The coach for the Harlem team berated his players immediately after they entered the dugout. You could hear him tell them that the umpire told him there would be ejections if the scene was repeated. If you noticed a few minutes later another Harlem player homered and the players conducted themselves considerably more sportsmanlike.
And now you know the rest of the story. Porch Dog

Regarding the actions of the Harlem player and his disgraceful homerun trot. The Harlem coach had no choice but to chew his player's tuckus because the reaming he got on ESPN's Between the Lines this past Sunday morning. The simple fact is the player should have been tossed no what level of amateur competition. The Harlem player's homerun trot was disgraceful and the fact that it happened can mean only one thing: it was not the first time he had done it and it had been condoned by his coach and the player's parents.

As the father of two sons (ages: 9 and 12) who participate in basketball, baseball, and swimming, I can assure you that if one of my sons had pulled that stunt he would not have made it to the dugout after touching homeplate, because I would have been out of the stands dragging him behind the woodshed for a good you know what.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by brandda

I saw that too. He embarrassed the whole profession.

David don't be embarrassed. The game is a show. I took my kids to see the Hudson Valley Renegades, who are an A affiliate of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

The PU not only danced, but did a hand stand and landed as a cheerleader does. You are seeing more and more of this. It's the show and umpires are encouraged to participate.

So IMO, the PU is not embarrassing himself, but merely being part of the show to draw the fans in. There were 3,000 in attendence - not bad for Class A ball.

Pete Booth

[Edited by PeteBooth on Aug 23rd, 2002 at 11:08 AM]

[greymule]

I'm afraid it is a "show" today. Too bad the game of baseball itself can't bring enough fans in.

Why not have nude bat girls and get another couple of thousand "fans" in the park? Having the police look the other way on pot smoking would undoubtedly boost attendance, too.

The Phillie Phanatic goes through an act where he tries to sneak up behind the umpire or make fun of him somehow, but the umpire inevitably notices the Phanatic and chases him away. At least the umpire is going through the act that he is in charge and won't tolerate silliness. That's different from putting on a hula hoop.

To me, the umpire is an official of the league. He's like a judge in a courtroom. He should not involve himself in silly antics. I believe that such behavior tears down the necessary "fence" between officials and players. It's a form of familiarity, and we know what that breeds.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by greymule

To me, the umpire is an official of the league. He's like a judge in a courtroom. He should not involve himself in silly antics. I believe that such behavior tears down the necessary "fence" between officials and players. It's a form of familiarity, and we know what that breeds.

He's not like a judge in the courtroom, or an officer of the league. He's an "employee" (or independent contractor). He's told what to do.

IF you have a problem with what the umpires are doing, you need to address your complaint to the league, not to the umpires.