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-   -   Partner Not Willing To Take Care of Business (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/55750-partner-not-willing-take-care-business.html)

dash_riprock Thu Dec 10, 2009 02:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteBooth (Post 641378)
Steve

it depends upon whom you are working with and by signalling to your partner you want to make it CRYSTAL clear that your prime responsibility (unless B1 singles as you point out) is the plate, therefore, DO NOT point to me on a pulled foot / swipe tag at first. They shouldn't be pointing in the first place but that's another discussion.

There are some guys that I am pretty certain you work with or have worked with that "love" to point whenever there is a pulled foot / swipe tag scenario.

Pete Booth

Signaling that you have the plate means there is no rotation. Any time there is a possible rotation, it is up to PU to signal it and BU to mirror it.

Steven Tyler Thu Dec 10, 2009 02:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 641389)
Signaling that you have the plate means there is no rotation. Any time there is a possible rotation, it is up to PU to signal it and BU to mirror it.

What is a signal for a rotation? I've never heard of one.

I just use the verbal, "I've got third if he goes". If the runner goes I use the verbal, "I've got third, I've got third".

BU should know in advance of a possible rotation.

GA Umpire Thu Dec 10, 2009 03:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler (Post 641398)
What is a signal for a rotation? I've never heard of one.

I just use the verbal, "I've got third if he goes". If the runner goes I use the verbal, "I've got third, I've got third".

BU should know in advance of a possible rotation.

The "Hang Ten" signal for a possible 1st to 3rd rotation is one. Just giving the BU a heads to let him know PU has 3B if necessary. Everyone should know their positioning but it is nice to make sure so 2 umpires are not at 3B making a call.

gordon30307 Thu Dec 10, 2009 03:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler (Post 641398)
What is a signal for a rotation? I've never heard of one.

I just use the verbal, "I've got third if he goes". If the runner goes I use the verbal, "I've got third, I've got third".

BU should know in advance of a possible rotation.

Umpires use hand signals so that we are on the same page concerning rotations etc. Surprised you never heard of this.

gordon30307 Thu Dec 10, 2009 03:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by nfua-44 (Post 641035)
IMHO, for that specific comment or any that starts with a personal reference, and discusses what they feel is a bad call, get rid of #1 & #2, and apply #3. I'm veering off a little from the OP here, because this should be handled by the offended party.

As to the rebuttal, I'm 100% with you there, there is nothing you need to clarify besides the fact that he's done for the day. Zippy one liners can be more problematic than necessary. You come across as making things personal in many cases, which is the reason you have him leaving the game anyway. Don't give him any ammo.

Tom

Why would you take it personally when someone says "you blew that call"? To me that's stating an opinion. You suck, you're terrible, you'll never work here again. Now I dump him. You missed it, you blew it. He's disagreeing with my decision. I can live with that.

nfua-44 Thu Dec 10, 2009 04:56pm

From the OP in part

Quote:

Coach PITA when the Coach hollers, "Damn, Billy! That's two you've blown so far!".
It's not a question of Me taking it personally. ANY statement that starts with you means someone is addressing your person.;) Skip is the one who has now made it personal, and in this case, has done so in a very "public" manner. I haven't been to a clinic, or read a reference where that type of behavior is acceptable.

That said, I've certainly had times where Skip has come up and told me his "opinion" of the call that was just made, but he has done so in a reasonable manner, and if he was standing in front of me talking and voiced his opinion including "you", I would be much more inclined to leave him in the game, state what I have, and move things along.

Tom

Steven Tyler Thu Dec 10, 2009 05:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordon30307 (Post 641405)
Umpires use hand signals so that we are on the same page concerning rotations etc. Surprised you never heard of this.

I've used hand signals. I just wasn't quite clear what was a 1st/3rd rotation signal was. The "Hang Ten" has probaly been flashed to me by the more experienced umps. I've just never heard of it during a pre-game.

I know my rotations, so I never looked for a sign. It's good to refresh my memory about this signal. I'll start to look for it in the future.

JJ Thu Dec 10, 2009 07:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler (Post 641466)
I've used hand signals. I just wasn't quite clear what was a 1st/3rd rotation signal was. The "Hang Ten" has probaly been flashed to me by the more experienced umps. I've just never heard of it during a pre-game.

I know my rotations, so I never looked for a sign. It's good to refresh my memory about this signal. I'll start to look for it in the future.

Or the plate guy can just point to 3rd. Remember why hand signals are given - they are to remind your partner AND yourself what the situation is. Even if I know the situation, and know that my partner knows the situation, I'll still give a hand signal ahead of the first pitch to the next batter. I also will hollar when things actually happen, but if it's a noisy crowd my partner may not hear me...a hand sign ahead of time keeps the crew "in the game".

JJ

SanDiegoSteve Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ (Post 641498)
Or the plate guy can just point to 3rd. Remember why hand signals are given - they are to remind your partner AND yourself what the situation is. Even if I know the situation, and know that my partner knows the situation, I'll still give a hand signal ahead of the first pitch to the next batter. I also will hollar when things actually happen, but if it's a noisy crowd my partner may not hear me...a hand sign ahead of time keeps the crew "in the game".

JJ

I was told by a recent pro school grad and longtime D1 umpire that the schools are now teaching both umpires to signal their respective coverages. He said that the PU in this case should signal the outs with the right hand, and simultaneously point to 3rd with the left, signifying that he has R1 at third on a hit to the outfield. The BU should signal the outs with the right hand and point to 1st to signify that he has the BR on the play.

He corrected me after our game and said that by my using the old-school signal of waggling both the left and right index fingers for 1st and 3rd, I was telling him I had both 1st and 3rd. I said that I know where I'm supposed to be and where the PU is supposed to be, so what's the big deal. He said that whenever I work with him he wants it done that way

Ump153 Fri Dec 11, 2009 02:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 641548)
I was told by a recent pro school grad and longtime D1 umpire that the schools are now teaching both umpires to signal their respective coverages. He said that the PU in this case should signal the outs with the right hand, and simultaneously point to 3rd with the left, signifying that he has R1 at third on a hit to the outfield. The BU should signal the outs with the right hand and point to 1st to signify that he has the BR on the play.

I don't know which school he attended, but as recently as last year, this was not what was taught at Evans. The signal taught there showed both the number or outs and the base covered with the right hand only by both PU and BU.

The right arm is bent a little less than 90 degrees at the elbow resulting in the forearm in front of the stomach and the right hand pointing in the direction of the base covered while displaying the number of outs.

kylejt Fri Dec 11, 2009 03:01am

We use a ton of hand signals in LL for a couple of reasons. First, it's a reminder for the lesser experienced umpires. A non-verbal reminder of who goes where, and why. Plus, on the small field, two man crews, and R1, it's the PU's call if he's taking third, or staying home.

Back on topic. If my partner is taking grief, and I think, for whatever reason, that I need to step in, I'll take a position on the line near the coach. Without looking at the offender, I'll use his name, and shut him down "Okay Jim, that's enough", in just a loud enough voice that the crowd doesn't hear me. If he takes issue with it, then it's me and him, and I'll deal with it directly.

SanDiegoSteve Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ump153 (Post 641590)
I don't know which school he attended, but as recently as last year, this was not what was taught at Evans. The signal taught there showed both the number or outs and the base covered with the right hand only by both PU and BU.

The right arm is bent a little less than 90 degrees at the elbow resulting in the forearm in front of the stomach and the right hand pointing in the direction of the base covered while displaying the number of outs.

Yeah, maybe that's what he meant, to use the right hand only. Either way it's a foreign concept to me.

RPatrino Sat Dec 12, 2009 03:53pm

Right hand, left hand? Who knows? It's important to let your partner(s) know what you are doing, in my opinion. I worked the plate in a 4 man game, no one on. The ball was hit in the gap, U2 goes to follow, BR rounds 1b heading toward 2nd. I rotate up to 3rd and end up standing next to U3 in the coaches box. Throw and runner arrive at 2b, but there is no one there to make the call. I nudge U3 and tell him to start walking toward 2b and make a call. He shrugs his shoulders and all hell breaks loose. We call a 4 umpire confab and finally make a call.

Moral of the story, make sure everyone knows that you are ALL going to do in the pre-game. Then signal or verbally tell each other during the game.

kylejt Sun Dec 13, 2009 02:47pm

Signals, unless you're working with rookies, should be saved for things where there are choices. Like, two man, R1. Okay, the IFF too.

But four man, nobody on, and U2 goes out is a no-brainer (or should be). I mean, what would you signal anyway?

When I work four man with an experienced crew, I'll know they have the basics down. Rotation and tag up coverage is pretty standard. If you're the PU, with bases loaded, and you're signaling that you're staying home, that's overkill.

RPatrino Sun Dec 13, 2009 03:28pm

The problem is that we work so few 3 or 4 man games that you can't take ANYTHING for granted no matter the experience level. At the LL/youth level you are never sure of what you are going to get, experience wise unless you are lucky enough to work with just a few partners. HS, particularly in the play-offs, you get more senior guys, except for those 'first timers' who are breaking into the post season for the first time.

We hold post-season trainings on 3 and 4, unfortunately we don't get any on field reps on coverages or rotations, so we do a thorough pre-game. This pre-game can't cover all situations or rotations, so we rely on signals and verbal communication. Over communicating at times, but the option of not talking between or during plays can cause serious problems.

I personally do not feel that communicating, even between experienced partners , is a weakness.


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