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-   -   Partner Not Willing To Take Care of Business (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/55750-partner-not-willing-take-care-business.html)

nfua-44 Wed Dec 09, 2009 01:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 640974)
Nothing wierd, Chris, just trying to get a discussion going.

I added this signaling thing to keep people on the post, not a tangent. In the past, most people would jump on the fact that you didn't let your partner know that you were staying "home". I don't signal this either but as I said, just for discussion purposes.

Thanks for the clarification Ozzy, and the OP too! Most of this depends on the particular level of my Partner. Personally I have zero fuse for the comment he just made, but I'm also not one to jump into my Partner's issues because in most cases your going to look like your undermining him.

Now with a brand new greenie, I would have to say I'm going to find a way (lineup card, etc.) to have a chat with skip on the down low if my guy just doesn't have the hutzpah yet. From there I would try to make sure we've got the time to do a detailed post game.

In general if I'm working with a regular partner any of those types of comments get the automatic whoosh. I had a damn scorekeeper in the dugout pop off about "calling it both ways" on a breaking pitch, and that was an automatic in my book.

nfua-44 Wed Dec 09, 2009 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 640989)
Rebuttal? To "you've blown 2 so far?" Depending on the circumstances, either:

1. That's enough.
2. You're restricted to the dugout.
3. You're ejected.

The coach isn't making an argument, so doesn't deserve a rebuttal.

IMHO, for that specific comment or any that starts with a personal reference, and discusses what they feel is a bad call, get rid of #1 & #2, and apply #3. I'm veering off a little from the OP here, because this should be handled by the offended party.

As to the rebuttal, I'm 100% with you there, there is nothing you need to clarify besides the fact that he's done for the day. Zippy one liners can be more problematic than necessary. You come across as making things personal in many cases, which is the reason you have him leaving the game anyway. Don't give him any ammo.

Tom

PeteBooth Wed Dec 09, 2009 04:02pm

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossman72 (Post 640959)
What would a good reply be to this coach if you were the BU? I'm always looking for "rebuttal lines."


From the OP

Quote:

Damn, Billy! That's two you've blown so far!".
Billy's Rebuttal: Skip that's nothing wait until the next one.

Pete Booth

PeteBooth Wed Dec 09, 2009 04:10pm

[QUOTE]
Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 640940)


R1 & R3, no outs and both are off with the pitch. There is a hot grounder to F6 who chooses to heave it to F3 and get the BR. You had no choice but "stay home" (you signaled to your partner that you were "staying home")

Ozzy I hear where you are coming from about signalling especially working with a rookie or someone you never worked with and although you asked a different question I would like to add to your OP.

Same sitch as you describe and you signal to your partner, HOWEVER he POINTS to you anyway.

Now what do you do?

As PU you have NO CLUE whether the fielder tagged said runner or F3 pulled his foot etc. HOWEVER, a call has to be made because there is LIVE action going on. You have 3 runners R1/R3 and the BR and during LIVE action your partner "out of the blue" pointed to you to make the call at first base.

if you say nothing, remember action is still live so you could have runners continuing running etc.

Therefore, in addition to what you posted what do you do when your partner points to you during LIVE action and you haven't a clue on what the right call is.

I guess someone is going to get dumped.

Good topic

Pete Booth

Steven Tyler Wed Dec 09, 2009 04:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris_Hickman (Post 640957)
I was wondering... this is a routine grounder. Why do you need to signal to your partner that "you" are stayin' home? The only signalling at pre-pitch is a 1st to 3rd rotation. This whole post sounds kinda weird to me.....


I thought the same thing, also.

jicecone Wed Dec 09, 2009 09:36pm

Ozzy, there are those that are interested in the point your are trying to discuss here and those that think every literal word typed here should be critiqued. The grammaticians and spell checkers will follow along shortly, thats for sure.

If I am working with another vet, chances are he will take care of his business when HE feels it is neccessary, so I am going to let him handle it his way. However, I may just jump on the coach a little sooner if by chance he shifts any comments my way, just to let him know that even though he has a dispute with my partner, I have heard enough, period. Hey maybe my partner did bang the two calls and is giving the coach some rope. Had to be there situation.

If I am work with a rookie, I would have to judge the situation. Did he bang the calls? Sometimes letting a rookie get a little dirty is good experience. See how he handles the situation but cover his wing at all times. If they were solid banger calls I might just jump in with a quick "Good call John", just to let the coach know where I stand without directly intervening.

Two complaints about calls don't necessarily mean action is required but I certainly would not let it continue much further.

I tend to give the coaches a lot of rope, what they choose to do with it is their business but believe me, THEY KNOW who is in charge of the game.

The only acceptable rebuttal is none at all or "thats enough". Making a sarcastic one is just plain baiting.

nfua-44 Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:59pm

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;641097]
Quote:



Same sitch as you describe and you signal to your partner, HOWEVER he POINTS to you anyway.

Now what do you do?

As PU you have NO CLUE whether the fielder tagged said runner or F3 pulled his foot etc. HOWEVER, a call has to be made because there is LIVE action going on. You have 3 runners R1/R3 and the BR and during LIVE action your partner "out of the blue" pointed to you to make the call at first base.

if you say nothing, remember action is still live so you could have runners continuing running etc.

Pete Booth
Yikes..........My smartass response would be to point right back at him with a what ya got look, however that's going to create so many more issues than I'm going to want to deal with!

I'm gonna be forced to make a call, (quickly since it's live) and since I didn't see an out, I can't call it, so I'm going with what I got, and I'm gonna have to swallow hard to try and keep the coach in the game. This is a moment where I'm going to give skip some latitude and if he asks me for an appeal, I'm gonna get with the partner and try to sort out what we've got, try to get the call right, and start preparing my lecture for the post-game finale!

Tom

Chris_Hickman Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:53pm

... I was not trying to disect anyone's post. Why not just ask this:

What do you do if your partner, who is on the bases, has 2-3 wackers that the 3rd base coach doesn't like and the coach is chirpin' WAY too much and your partner is ignoring it?

short and sweet........

I kinda got "thrown " on the " you have no choice but to stay home " thing. it's 2 man.. R1 and R3 moving on the pitch... who cares. This is a simple play in the infield. If the baseguy doesnt know that he has the call at 1st, maybe he needs to go officiate checkers. I think Ozzy got too wrapped up in all the useless info.

As to Pete's situations.. I have seen that happen first hand. Guys pointing to the plateguy for a swipe tag/ pulled foot. A good pre-game should clear this up. On a R1 and R3 play with a grounder in the infield, the PU slides 1st base extended to see the touch of home and see a possible swipe tag/ pulled foot @ 1st. Yes, this CAN BE seen by the plateguy if he is doing his job. Some plate guys stay point of plate and don't even look up the line on that play. Shame on them.

This is not a slam post... nothing personal..


BTW, here is a short video demonstrating the fine art of pointing to your plateguy for help. Classic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIUp0TPQHcM

ozzy6900 Thu Dec 10, 2009 08:36am

We are kind of getting away from the whole thing here.

Chris, the signal I was referring to is given at the start of he at bat, not during the play, but we both know that it is irrelevant. I was not offended by your post so don't worry about other's comments.

Pete, yeah! How many times have we seen this happen where the play is on the bases and the BU points into the PU. I'm from the old school of get your own call (my calls) but I always try to keep my eye out for my partner (whenever it's possible).

Okay all. Yes this was a real situation and my partner was one of our veterans. It's not normal for him to let comments like this go but for some reason, he was just not responding.

I walked up the 3rd base line and calmly said, "Okay, Coach PITA, you've had your say now that's enough. Let's get back to the game now." His response was "Shut up, I'm not talking......."

The hook flew, the coach started a scene (nose to nose) and NOW my partner came down to escort Coach PITA away. After the game, I thanked my partner for escorting Coach PITA away and he appologized saying he just wasn't "in the game". Hey, it happens!

SanDiegoSteve Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 641031)
"Coach, you won't make it to four."

Mine is similar, only it's, "and you're not going to be around to see the third...goodbye." The coach telling you how many calls you've blown is usually accompanied by a hand signal with the appropriate number of allegedly blown calls. Offending party must leave.

SanDiegoSteve Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:07am

R1 and R3...ground ball that stays in the infield? Sure, PU stays home. BU has BR and all plays on R1 at 2nd, and also 3rd if R1 rounds 2nd and goes to 3rd on the throw to 1st.

But if the ball gets through the infield, the PU sure doesn't stay home then, because he now has R1 if there is a play at 3rd.

So, my question is why would anyone signal to their partner before the at-bat that they are staying home in this situation? It's a normal 1st and 3rd situation, calling for a rotation on a single to the outfield.

gordon30307 Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 640940)
So you are settled in at the plate and your partner has had a few bangers. He seems to be doing fine although Coach PITA has had a few comments on the base calls.

R1 & R3, no outs and both are off with the pitch. There is a hot grounder to F6 who chooses to heave it to F3 and get the BR. You had no choice but "stay home" (you signaled to your partner that you were "staying home") so your partner has all the base calls. He bang out the BR, and Coach PITA starts another disapproval concert from the 3rd base box.

Your partner just goes to his position and says nothing to Coach PITA when the Coach hollers, "Damn, Billy! That's two you've blown so far!". Your partner says absolutley nothing and you are fuming over this Coach.

Now I know that this has happened to all of us and I would like to know what my brothers would do.

Do you dump Coach PITA?
Do you tell Coach PITA "That's enough!"?
Do you do nothing?

How I handle situations depends upon the level I'm working AND if the Head Coach faces consquences if he's dumped. No accountability I have the choke collar pulled tight. If they are fined or have to answer to the AD if ejected I have them on a leash. That's two calls you've blown. He's expressing an opinion and I can probably live with that comment.

Had a similar situation working with a guy on his first Varsity Game. He asked for the plate. One of the Coaches was on his *** periodically during the game. I feel that if as long as it's one on one I let my partner deal with it. My partner was obviously intimidated. He's a good umpire but at the time he didn't have the confidence to do the right thing. Later in the game he came out to question one of my calls. Since this was a high school game I seized the moment and restricted him to the dugout. I had no reason to eject, and I protected my partner without embarassing him.

PeteBooth Thu Dec 10, 2009 02:05pm

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 641289)

So, my question is why would anyone signal to their partner before the at-bat that they are staying home in this situation? It's a normal 1st and 3rd situation, calling for a rotation on a single to the outfield.


Steve

it depends upon whom you are working with and by signalling to your partner you want to make it CRYSTAL clear that your prime responsibility (unless B1 singles as you point out) is the plate, therefore, DO NOT point to me on a pulled foot / swipe tag at first. They shouldn't be pointing in the first place but that's another discussion.

There are some guys that I am pretty certain you work with or have worked with that "love" to point whenever there is a pulled foot / swipe tag scenario.

Pete Booth

midtnblu Thu Dec 10, 2009 02:19pm

if R3 is moving on the pitch and the batter is swinging away i'm gonna ask the coach what kind of signs he's giving down there...

Chris_Hickman Thu Dec 10, 2009 02:35pm

Quote:

it depends upon whom you are working with and by signalling to your partner you want to make it CRYSTAL clear that your prime responsibility (unless B1 singles as you point out) is the plate, therefore, DO NOT point to me on a pulled foot / swipe tag at first. They shouldn't be pointing in the first place but that's another discussion.
You DO NOT have to signal "I am staying home" on this play. I have had only 1 guy point to me in about 5 years. I just don't see it being a problem. Add this to your pre-game ( if you do one):

If you have a pulled foot/swipe tag, make your call. If they argue, we can get together and see what we got. Don't point at me.. make your own call.

You can say all that in 20 seconds.

This is my last post on this thread....


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