Partner Not Willing To Take Care of Business
 

So you are settled in at the plate and your partner has had a few bangers. He seems to be doing fine although Coach PITA has had a few comments on the base calls.

R1 & R3, no outs and both are off with the pitch. There is a hot grounder to F6 who chooses to heave it to F3 and get the BR. You had no choice but "stay home" (you signaled to your partner that you were "staying home") so your partner has all the base calls. He bang out the BR, and Coach PITA starts another disapproval concert from the 3rd base box.

Your partner just goes to his position and says nothing to Coach PITA when the Coach hollers, "Damn, Billy! That's two you've blown so far!". Your partner says absolutley nothing and you are fuming over this Coach.

Now I know that this has happened to all of us and I would like to know what my brothers would do.

Do you dump Coach PITA?
Do you tell Coach PITA "That's enough!"?
Do you do nothing?

You have to give him time to take care of this on his own. I might not like the actions of the coach but he's getting a LONG leash from me before I'll step in.

Depends on partner's experience. With a rookie I'll step in.

I agree with this....need to have the back of a new guy. With a vet....tough one...we've all worked with vets that shock you with their "lack of intestinal fortitude" to take care of business. They just make it harder for other umpires.

I was wondering... this is a routine grounder. Why do you need to signal to your partner that "you" are stayin' home? The only signalling at pre-pitch is a 1st to 3rd rotation. This whole post sounds kinda weird to me.....

What would a good reply be to this coach if you were the BU? I'm always looking for "rebuttal lines."

Nothing wierd, Chris, just trying to get a discussion going.

I added this signaling thing to keep people on the post, not a tangent. In the past, most people would jump on the fact that you didn't let your partner know that you were staying "home". I don't signal this either but as I said, just for discussion purposes.

Rebuttal? To "you've blown 2 so far?" Depending on the circumstances, either:

1. That's enough.
2. You're restricted to the dugout.
3. You're ejected.

The coach isn't making an argument, so doesn't deserve a rebuttal.

1. Only two? I thought it was more.

2. Who's counting?

I used the same one both times it was said to me: "You're gone."

You could give your partner that "look" in hopes it wakes him up. Between innings, especially with a newer umpire, call him down and tell him it's time to start taking care of business, or I will. We've all had to learn the hard way, sometimes a nudge will keep a younger umpire from learning the hard way also. I clearly remember when the light came on for me, the games go much smoother when you stop it quickly.

How about "When the ball arrived the runners foot was 3/8" from the bag." When he asks if you are crazy tell him it may have been 1/2".

If a vet, I'd get to the coach between innings and tell him I'll take care of biz if my partner doesn't.
One trick I've learned is to pull out the line-up card when approaching the coach. That way only he and I know the true nature of our chat.

Rebuttal lines rarely diffuse the situation. Often the opposite.

"Coach, you won't make it to four."

Thanks for the clarification Ozzy, and the OP too! Most of this depends on the particular level of my Partner. Personally I have zero fuse for the comment he just made, but I'm also not one to jump into my Partner's issues because in most cases your going to look like your undermining him.

Now with a brand new greenie, I would have to say I'm going to find a way (lineup card, etc.) to have a chat with skip on the down low if my guy just doesn't have the hutzpah yet. From there I would try to make sure we've got the time to do a detailed post game.

In general if I'm working with a regular partner any of those types of comments get the automatic whoosh. I had a damn scorekeeper in the dugout pop off about "calling it both ways" on a breaking pitch, and that was an automatic in my book.

IMHO, for that specific comment or any that starts with a personal reference, and discusses what they feel is a bad call, get rid of #1 & #2, and apply #3. I'm veering off a little from the OP here, because this should be handled by the offended party.

As to the rebuttal, I'm 100% with you there, there is nothing you need to clarify besides the fact that he's done for the day. Zippy one liners can be more problematic than necessary. You come across as making things personal in many cases, which is the reason you have him leaving the game anyway. Don't give him any ammo.

Tom

From the OP

Billy's Rebuttal: Skip that's nothing wait until the next one.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE]Ozzy I hear where you are coming from about signalling especially working with a rookie or someone you never worked with and although you asked a different question I would like to add to your OP.

Same sitch as you describe and you signal to your partner, HOWEVER he POINTS to you anyway.

Now what do you do?

As PU you have NO CLUE whether the fielder tagged said runner or F3 pulled his foot etc. HOWEVER, a call has to be made because there is LIVE action going on. You have 3 runners R1/R3 and the BR and during LIVE action your partner "out of the blue" pointed to you to make the call at first base.

if you say nothing, remember action is still live so you could have runners continuing running etc.

Therefore, in addition to what you posted what do you do when your partner points to you during LIVE action and you haven't a clue on what the right call is.

I guess someone is going to get dumped.

Good topic

Pete Booth

I thought the same thing, also.

Ozzy, there are those that are interested in the point your are trying to discuss here and those that think every literal word typed here should be critiqued. The grammaticians and spell checkers will follow along shortly, thats for sure.

If I am working with another vet, chances are he will take care of his business when HE feels it is neccessary, so I am going to let him handle it his way. However, I may just jump on the coach a little sooner if by chance he shifts any comments my way, just to let him know that even though he has a dispute with my partner, I have heard enough, period. Hey maybe my partner did bang the two calls and is giving the coach some rope. Had to be there situation.

If I am work with a rookie, I would have to judge the situation. Did he bang the calls? Sometimes letting a rookie get a little dirty is good experience. See how he handles the situation but cover his wing at all times. If they were solid banger calls I might just jump in with a quick "Good call John", just to let the coach know where I stand without directly intervening.

Two complaints about calls don't necessarily mean action is required but I certainly would not let it continue much further.

I tend to give the coaches a lot of rope, what they choose to do with it is their business but believe me, THEY KNOW who is in charge of the game.

The only acceptable rebuttal is none at all or "thats enough". Making a sarcastic one is just plain baiting.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;641097]Yikes..........My smartass response would be to point right back at him with a what ya got look, however that's going to create so many more issues than I'm going to want to deal with!

I'm gonna be forced to make a call, (quickly since it's live) and since I didn't see an out, I can't call it, so I'm going with what I got, and I'm gonna have to swallow hard to try and keep the coach in the game. This is a moment where I'm going to give skip some latitude and if he asks me for an appeal, I'm gonna get with the partner and try to sort out what we've got, try to get the call right, and start preparing my lecture for the post-game finale!

Tom

... I was not trying to disect anyone's post. Why not just ask this:

What do you do if your partner, who is on the bases, has 2-3 wackers that the 3rd base coach doesn't like and the coach is chirpin' WAY too much and your partner is ignoring it?

short and sweet........

I kinda got "thrown " on the " you have no choice but to stay home " thing. it's 2 man.. R1 and R3 moving on the pitch... who cares. This is a simple play in the infield. If the baseguy doesnt know that he has the call at 1st, maybe he needs to go officiate checkers. I think Ozzy got too wrapped up in all the useless info.

As to Pete's situations.. I have seen that happen first hand. Guys pointing to the plateguy for a swipe tag/ pulled foot. A good pre-game should clear this up. On a R1 and R3 play with a grounder in the infield, the PU slides 1st base extended to see the touch of home and see a possible swipe tag/ pulled foot @ 1st. Yes, this CAN BE seen by the plateguy if he is doing his job. Some plate guys stay point of plate and don't even look up the line on that play. Shame on them.

This is not a slam post... nothing personal..


BTW, here is a short video demonstrating the fine art of pointing to your plateguy for help. Classic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIUp0TPQHcM

We are kind of getting away from the whole thing here.

Chris, the signal I was referring to is given at the start of he at bat, not during the play, but we both know that it is irrelevant. I was not offended by your post so don't worry about other's comments.

Pete, yeah! How many times have we seen this happen where the play is on the bases and the BU points into the PU. I'm from the old school of get your own call (my calls) but I always try to keep my eye out for my partner (whenever it's possible).

Okay all. Yes this was a real situation and my partner was one of our veterans. It's not normal for him to let comments like this go but for some reason, he was just not responding.

I walked up the 3rd base line and calmly said, "Okay, Coach PITA, you've had your say now that's enough. Let's get back to the game now." His response was "Shut up, I'm not talking......."

The hook flew, the coach started a scene (nose to nose) and NOW my partner came down to escort Coach PITA away. After the game, I thanked my partner for escorting Coach PITA away and he appologized saying he just wasn't "in the game". Hey, it happens!

Mine is similar, only it's, "and you're not going to be around to see the third...goodbye." The coach telling you how many calls you've blown is usually accompanied by a hand signal with the appropriate number of allegedly blown calls. Offending party must leave.

R1 and R3...ground ball that stays in the infield? Sure, PU stays home. BU has BR and all plays on R1 at 2nd, and also 3rd if R1 rounds 2nd and goes to 3rd on the throw to 1st.

But if the ball gets through the infield, the PU sure doesn't stay home then, because he now has R1 if there is a play at 3rd.

So, my question is why would anyone signal to their partner before the at-bat that they are staying home in this situation? It's a normal 1st and 3rd situation, calling for a rotation on a single to the outfield.

How I handle situations depends upon the level I'm working AND if the Head Coach faces consquences if he's dumped. No accountability I have the choke collar pulled tight. If they are fined or have to answer to the AD if ejected I have them on a leash. That's two calls you've blown. He's expressing an opinion and I can probably live with that comment.

Had a similar situation working with a guy on his first Varsity Game. He asked for the plate. One of the Coaches was on his *** periodically during the game. I feel that if as long as it's one on one I let my partner deal with it. My partner was obviously intimidated. He's a good umpire but at the time he didn't have the confidence to do the right thing. Later in the game he came out to question one of my calls. Since this was a high school game I seized the moment and restricted him to the dugout. I had no reason to eject, and I protected my partner without embarassing him.

Steve

it depends upon whom you are working with and by signalling to your partner you want to make it CRYSTAL clear that your prime responsibility (unless B1 singles as you point out) is the plate, therefore, DO NOT point to me on a pulled foot / swipe tag at first. They shouldn't be pointing in the first place but that's another discussion.

There are some guys that I am pretty certain you work with or have worked with that "love" to point whenever there is a pulled foot / swipe tag scenario.

Pete Booth

if R3 is moving on the pitch and the batter is swinging away i'm gonna ask the coach what kind of signs he's giving down there...

You DO NOT have to signal "I am staying home" on this play. I have had only 1 guy point to me in about 5 years. I just don't see it being a problem. Add this to your pre-game ( if you do one):

If you have a pulled foot/swipe tag, make your call. If they argue, we can get together and see what we got. Don't point at me.. make your own call.

You can say all that in 20 seconds.

This is my last post on this thread....

Signaling that you have the plate means there is no rotation. Any time there is a possible rotation, it is up to PU to signal it and BU to mirror it.

What is a signal for a rotation? I've never heard of one.

I just use the verbal, "I've got third if he goes". If the runner goes I use the verbal, "I've got third, I've got third".

BU should know in advance of a possible rotation.

The "Hang Ten" signal for a possible 1st to 3rd rotation is one. Just giving the BU a heads to let him know PU has 3B if necessary. Everyone should know their positioning but it is nice to make sure so 2 umpires are not at 3B making a call.

Umpires use hand signals so that we are on the same page concerning rotations etc. Surprised you never heard of this.

Why would you take it personally when someone says "you blew that call"? To me that's stating an opinion. You suck, you're terrible, you'll never work here again. Now I dump him. You missed it, you blew it. He's disagreeing with my decision. I can live with that.

From the OP in part

It's not a question of Me taking it personally. ANY statement that starts with you means someone is addressing your person.;) Skip is the one who has now made it personal, and in this case, has done so in a very "public" manner. I haven't been to a clinic, or read a reference where that type of behavior is acceptable.

That said, I've certainly had times where Skip has come up and told me his "opinion" of the call that was just made, but he has done so in a reasonable manner, and if he was standing in front of me talking and voiced his opinion including "you", I would be much more inclined to leave him in the game, state what I have, and move things along.

Tom

I've used hand signals. I just wasn't quite clear what was a 1st/3rd rotation signal was. The "Hang Ten" has probaly been flashed to me by the more experienced umps. I've just never heard of it during a pre-game.

I know my rotations, so I never looked for a sign. It's good to refresh my memory about this signal. I'll start to look for it in the future.

Or the plate guy can just point to 3rd. Remember why hand signals are given - they are to remind your partner AND yourself what the situation is. Even if I know the situation, and know that my partner knows the situation, I'll still give a hand signal ahead of the first pitch to the next batter. I also will hollar when things actually happen, but if it's a noisy crowd my partner may not hear me...a hand sign ahead of time keeps the crew "in the game".

JJ

I was told by a recent pro school grad and longtime D1 umpire that the schools are now teaching both umpires to signal their respective coverages. He said that the PU in this case should signal the outs with the right hand, and simultaneously point to 3rd with the left, signifying that he has R1 at third on a hit to the outfield. The BU should signal the outs with the right hand and point to 1st to signify that he has the BR on the play.

He corrected me after our game and said that by my using the old-school signal of waggling both the left and right index fingers for 1st and 3rd, I was telling him I had both 1st and 3rd. I said that I know where I'm supposed to be and where the PU is supposed to be, so what's the big deal. He said that whenever I work with him he wants it done that way

I don't know which school he attended, but as recently as last year, this was not what was taught at Evans. The signal taught there showed both the number or outs and the base covered with the right hand only by both PU and BU.

The right arm is bent a little less than 90 degrees at the elbow resulting in the forearm in front of the stomach and the right hand pointing in the direction of the base covered while displaying the number of outs.

We use a ton of hand signals in LL for a couple of reasons. First, it's a reminder for the lesser experienced umpires. A non-verbal reminder of who goes where, and why. Plus, on the small field, two man crews, and R1, it's the PU's call if he's taking third, or staying home.

Back on topic. If my partner is taking grief, and I think, for whatever reason, that I need to step in, I'll take a position on the line near the coach. Without looking at the offender, I'll use his name, and shut him down "Okay Jim, that's enough", in just a loud enough voice that the crowd doesn't hear me. If he takes issue with it, then it's me and him, and I'll deal with it directly.

Yeah, maybe that's what he meant, to use the right hand only. Either way it's a foreign concept to me.

Right hand, left hand? Who knows? It's important to let your partner(s) know what you are doing, in my opinion. I worked the plate in a 4 man game, no one on. The ball was hit in the gap, U2 goes to follow, BR rounds 1b heading toward 2nd. I rotate up to 3rd and end up standing next to U3 in the coaches box. Throw and runner arrive at 2b, but there is no one there to make the call. I nudge U3 and tell him to start walking toward 2b and make a call. He shrugs his shoulders and all hell breaks loose. We call a 4 umpire confab and finally make a call.

Moral of the story, make sure everyone knows that you are ALL going to do in the pre-game. Then signal or verbally tell each other during the game.

Signals, unless you're working with rookies, should be saved for things where there are choices. Like, two man, R1. Okay, the IFF too.

But four man, nobody on, and U2 goes out is a no-brainer (or should be). I mean, what would you signal anyway?

When I work four man with an experienced crew, I'll know they have the basics down. Rotation and tag up coverage is pretty standard. If you're the PU, with bases loaded, and you're signaling that you're staying home, that's overkill.

The problem is that we work so few 3 or 4 man games that you can't take ANYTHING for granted no matter the experience level. At the LL/youth level you are never sure of what you are going to get, experience wise unless you are lucky enough to work with just a few partners. HS, particularly in the play-offs, you get more senior guys, except for those 'first timers' who are breaking into the post season for the first time.

We hold post-season trainings on 3 and 4, unfortunately we don't get any on field reps on coverages or rotations, so we do a thorough pre-game. This pre-game can't cover all situations or rotations, so we rely on signals and verbal communication. Over communicating at times, but the option of not talking between or during plays can cause serious problems.

I personally do not feel that communicating, even between experienced partners , is a weakness.

Touche.

I just got done doing a whole fall season of three-man college ball, and my right elbow is all inflamed from all the extra signaling. We signaled on every single possible rotation.

But the one guy who was new to the rest of us and was too cool to answer all the signals, is the one guy who missed a rotation from D, and wasn't at second for a banger that never got called.

So, touché from me, also.

Does this mean we can expect to see you in the SCCUA this spring?

Pet Peeve
 

That is one of my MAJOR pet peeves! Only when it comes from the field or benches. The fans pay their money and get to say (almost) anything they want. But when it comes from any of the participants, it strongly implies that I am calling the situation one way for the other team, but not for theirs. That says "Hey Blue! You are cheating!" A team gets a single warning from me - not in that game - for every game I call for them in the future. Some coaches and players are very surprised when they get an immediate and very stern warning from me when I hear that phrase. I have had coaches tell me that they didn't mean it that way, but now that they thought about it, they actually agreed with me. Some use that phrase like it is a toss-off saying without realizing the implications of what they are saying. Then again, they probably do, but have never been called on it.

Question
 

I'm a little late to this party and I don't know if anyone's still interested, but I just looked at the OP and immediately was wondering why R3 was going on the pitch with no outs and second base open, and it wasn't a squeeze. If that's an accurate representation of the situation (perhaps it was R1 and R2 instead?) the coach is an idiot even before he argues.

the thread is accurate and (if you pardon me) who gives a crap why the runners did what they did? We as officials have to deal with EVERYTHING!

Note: This is why you rarely see me post a situation. It was a simple question yet look at the 4 pages of shear crap! Only a few people were able to simply look at the OP and reply and most of them are veterans in umpiring and to this forum.

Ozzy RIGHT ON and unfortunately is why this Forum has taken a turn for the worst.

Pete Booth

If I may Ozzy, I would like to dissect this post just to get off topic. What defines a few? 4? 5? 10? I've going through the threads and it seemed like more than a few. Shear crap? What defines that? Is it the ones off topic like this one? What about the ones questioning R3's motives? Simple question? The question may have been simple but the situation wasn't. Here we have R3 stealing HP without being forced. Why is that happening? I mean come on. The simple part would be him staying at 3B. Once he took off, it became complex and very complicated. Now, we have to get into the mind of the coach and wonder why. Simple question, maybe. But, far from simple situation.:rolleyes:

Just messing with you Ozzy. Time to get back on the field. :)

Maybe it was a late inning, the mgr wanted an insurance run in a close game, and his best ground ball contact hitter is at the plate, and fastest runner is at 1B, and a hit and run is his best idea to trade a run for an out and still have a runner in scoring position at 2B with 1 out. A squeeze would be another way to get the runner in but maybe the batter was a better ground ball hitter than bunter.

Fgfs
 

....Jesus people ..........

The post is about your partner NOT doing anything when getting 'crap' from a Rat .....

I agree w/ Ozzy here 100%.....

Why disect the situation that was presented when it has absolutely NOTHING to do with subject matter? :rolleyes:

Because not many games to call in late December (none here) and nothing else to do.

Heck, this is only thread that has had a post since MONDAY....

If you and Ozzy want to bug out you know how to do it. In fact, now that I look back this was your first post so you bugged in to drop this gem.

Jeff, when popping in from the other forum, you need to enter with a less antagonistic approach!:cool:


http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/q...m_kisslogo.gif

And unless you put a comma after Jesus, you're popping in and calling everybody Jesus people.

No, he's just targeting the Jesus people. ;)

Then I don't feel left out!