Missed Base/Appeal

[Lapopez]

Then, to answer my question with respect to time and based on the above answers: Whatever time such that the action has become relaxed. It's not a time issue but a relaxed action issue. Agreed?

With respect to Mbyron's answer to 2 and my summary above, if the runner is now in a run down between first and second and the first baseman realizes the runner missed first base to begin with, he couldn't appeal at that point. If he were smart and wanted to play it safe, he could chase (slowly) the runner to second, causing the action to become relaxed and then appeal at first. Agreed?

[greymule]

In OBR, I think that when the BR misses 1B and then overruns the bag, he has to be tagged whether the action becomes "relaxed" or not. At least that's the way I've seen it handled.

But I can certainly conjure up troublesome scenarios, e.g., BR misses 1B, overruns by 35 feet. Nobody appears to be appealing, and he asks the ump for time while he pulls up his socks. Grant time and you prevent the defense from appealing the miss; don't grant time and you have indicated that something's up.

In that other scenario about chasing the runner to 2B, yes the fielder could do that. However, I think an appeal could be made even during unrelaxed action, as long as the runner who committed the infraction has continued past the missed base, has left the vicinity of the base, and displays no intent to return.

Batter hits a ball off the fence, misses 1B, continues around 2B and 3B and is on his way home. The defense throws the ball to 1B and appeals the miss. That's not relaxed action, but I'd uphold that appeal.

I'm sure somebody on the board can give you a definitive answer.

[buckyswider]

I guess a scenario with larger ramifications would be a time play on the 3rd out (other than at first base, obviously). R1, two outs. Batter hits a gapper. B1 touches first, misses second. B1 almost to third. F4 receives the throw, steps on second requesting appeal before R1 touches home plate.

I'd grant the appeal and wipe out the run. Not sure I'm right, though.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by buckyswider

I guess a scenario with larger ramifications would be a time play on the 3rd out (other than at first base, obviously). R1, two outs. Batter hits a gapper. B1 touches first, misses second. B1 almost to third. F4 receives the throw, steps on second requesting appeal before R1 touches home plate.

I'd grant the appeal and wipe out the run. Not sure I'm right, though.

Thank you. I agree with your ruling. This illustrates the answer to my question is not as simple as relaxed v. unrelaxed action.

[greymule]

I'd think I'd uphold that appeal, too.

To give an example of an extreme contrast, in ASA softball, a missed base can be appealed immediately after the miss, whether or not the runner is in the vicinity or scrambling to get back. If you take the strict wording of the OBR book, you might think the same thing applies to baseball, but it doesn't.

I can't remember ever seeing an appeal of a missed base while the action was still "hot," though. I don't know whether Evans or J/R or MLBUM states anything definitively, but since they mention being in the vicinity, attempting to return, etc., we can properly infer that those are key criteria.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

Thank you. I agree with your ruling. This illustrates the answer to my question is not as simple as relaxed v. unrelaxed action.

It is that simple. J/R defines relaxed action: "The runner (whose action is being appealed) is inactive; he is standing on another base, or is well removed from the base at which the appeal is being made." Therefore, in your example (which I've never seen and doubt I ever will), the action is relaxed, and the appeal is allowed.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

It is that simple. J/R defines relaxed action: "The runner (whose action is being appealed) is inactive; he is standing on another base, or is well removed from the base at which the appeal is being made." Therefore, in your example (which I've never seen and doubt I ever will), the action is relaxed, and the appeal is allowed.

If that is how "relaxed action" is defined, then it is simple. I'll use the definition rather than the term if I ever have to explain it.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by greymule

But I can certainly conjure up troublesome scenarios, e.g., BR misses 1B, overruns by 35 feet. Nobody appears to be appealing, and he asks the ump for time while he pulls up his socks. Grant time and you prevent the defense from appealing the miss; don't grant time and you have indicated that something's up.

Would this still be true in FED, which allows a dead ball appeal? In other words, can the defense appeal, and would it be upheld, while the ball is dead before the runner returns to first?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

Would this still be true in FED, which allows a dead ball appeal? In other words, can the defense appeal, and would it be upheld, while the ball is dead before the runner returns to first?

No. The only way for the ball to become dead during play would be for an infraction like INT or if the ball is thrown out of play. For an infraction by the offense, the offending runner is generally out and other runners return.

For an infraction by the defense, the runners have the opportunity to correct base running errors unless they were on or beyond their advance base when the ball became dead (8-2-5, 8-2-6c).

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by mbyron

No. The only way for the ball to become dead during play would be for an infraction like INT or if the ball is thrown out of play. For an infraction by the offense, the offending runner is generally out and other runners return.

For an infraction by the defense, the runners have the opportunity to correct base running errors unless they were on or beyond their advance base when the ball became dead (8-2-5, 8-2-6c).

I'm talking about Greymule's play: "BR misses 1B, overruns by 35 feet. Nobody appears to be appealing, and he asks the ump for time while he pulls up his socks. Grant time." Now the ball is dead. It's an infraction by the offense--the runner missed 1B. Would he be out if the defense appeals during this dead ball period of time before the runner returns and touches first base? It's confusing because you answered 'No' but go on to say that for an infraction by the offense, the offending runner is generally out.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Lapopez

I'm talking about Greymule's play: "BR misses 1B, overruns by 35 feet. Nobody appears to be appealing, and he asks the ump for time while he pulls up his socks. Grant time." Now the ball is dead. It's an infraction by the offense--the runner missed 1B. Would he be out if the defense appeals during this dead ball period of time before the runner returns and touches first base? It's confusing because you answered 'No' but go on to say that for an infraction by the offense, the offending runner is generally out.

Sure, in that case, with the BR himself requesting time, you could grant time and rule on the dead-ball appeal. Since the BR requested time, I would rule that he had "completed his advancement" as required by 8-2-6c1.

[Lapopez]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Sure, in that case, with the BR himself requesting time, you could grant time and rule on the dead-ball appeal. Since the BR requested time, I would rule that he had "completed his advancement" as required by 8-2-6c1.

So Greymule was correct that in both OBR and FED, by calling time, the offense gets the benefit of being able to return to the missed base without liability of being called out?