How to "Call" a ball not caught

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

It's actually err.

"To err is human, to forgive is totally out of the question."

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

TEE I agree however, IMO the more interesting question is this.

Let's "go with the OP" R1/R2 less then 2 outs and the ball hit to F6 as in the OP.

You are the PU

Your partner as in this OP says NOTHING. You are:

1. CERTAIN the ball was one hopped. - Do you "chime in" and say No catch? or remain silent?

2. You are UNCERTAIN if the ball was one hopped or not BUT your PARTNER says nothing. Do you say "No catch" figuring if it was a catch your partner would have said so.

In Summary: What should the PU do in this OP if his partner is NOT signalling or saying ANYTHING.

Pete Booth

If it becomes apparent my partner is not going to make a call (a couple of seconds), I will come up with the call, but I can appreciate an argument for keeping my mouth shut on #2.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

What a terrible attitude. I have heard this so many times throughout the years from some of my partners and it really bothers me. A lot of things become your problem(and your partner's problem, as well) A much better philosophy is to be as clear and concise as possible.

I am not hear to say that a safe signal and NO (without using the word catch) is the only way to call it. I simply said that it might alleviate confusion. That is a good thing for an umpire to do.

Why point fair? If you did not call it foul, it is obviously fair. If the players, managers or coaches are confused, it is not your problem.

Why verbalize a swing(or no swing) on an attempted check swing? A strike is a strike. If the players, managers or coaches are confused, it is not your problem.

When I work games, I give the appropriate signals, verbal and non-verbal. These appropriate signals are as clear and concise as they can be. If on a check swing D3K and I say "Yes he went, no catch" and the batter stands there confused, not my problem. If I call "Infield fly" and the runners take off, not my problem. If I call "That's obstruction" and the runner is still out due to his poor judgement running the bases, not my problem. My job is to officiate the game. In my opinion, simply saying "No" on a short hop can cause more confusion. "No" what? No catch, no it didn't hit the ground? There is a reason that "No catch" and "That's a catch" are taught by those that not only know more than me, but teach the game to professional umpires. If all umpires would adopt the correct and to date mechanics, you and your partners might not find yourselves in problem situations and, therefore, not bothered at all.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

When I work games, I give the appropriate signals, verbal and non-verbal. These appropriate signals are as clear and concise as they can be. If on a check swing D3K and I say "Yes he went, no catch" and the batter stands there confused, not my problem. If I call "Infield fly" and the runners take off, not my problem. If I call "That's obstruction" and the runner is still out due to his poor judgement running the bases, not my problem. My job is to officiate the game. In my opinion, simply saying "No" on a short hop can cause more confusion. "No" what? No catch, no it didn't hit the ground? There is a reason that "No catch" and "That's a catch" are taught by those that not only know more than me, but teach the game to professional umpires. If all umpires would adopt the correct and to date mechanics, you and your partners might not find yourselves in problem situations and, therefore, not bothered at all.

Amen!

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

TEE I agree however, IMO the more interesting question is this.

...

You are the PU

Your partner as in this OP says NOTHING. You are:

...

2. You are UNCERTAIN if the ball was one hopped or not BUT your PARTNER says nothing. Do you say "No catch" figuring if it was a catch your partner would have said so.

In Summary: What should the PU do in this OP if his partner is NOT signalling or saying ANYTHING.

Pete Booth

Pete,

Interestingly, I had this happen this past Sunday during a HS fall ball game.

Only differences were the ball was hit to F4 and the play started with an R2 & R3.

I honestly couldn't tell whether the F4 "trapped" or "caught" the ball.

My partner had a good look at the play and signalled -NOTHING. I was a bit taken aback. I wondered if he thought this was my call.

As I was debating with myself whether to "poach" the call, the F4 threw to F6 at 2B (both runners had taken off on contact) and my partner then ruled "SAFE!", leading me to conclude he had judged "No Catch".

The F6 then threw home where the catcher tagged out the R3 attempting to score. Action relaxed with the BR at 1B and the R2 on 3B.

Oddly, neither coach came out to discuss the play with either me or my partner.

A half inning later, I gave my partner the "let's talk" signal. I verified that he thought it was his call to make (he thought so too) and suggested that it might be better to come up with a decisive "No Catch" mechanic should a similar play occur in the future. He agreed that would be a good idea.

So, what I did when this happened was - NOTHING. A very uncomfortable couple of seconds from my perspective, and I can't believe we didn't have a bit of a "discussion" about it with a coach.

JM

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

You may be completely right about how you make that call. I have no problem with that.

My issue was with the attitude of: They are confused? Who cares.

What should we do, then? Hug them?

I don't care about their mental state, or whether they know what just happened or not. I care about them being safe or out.

[UmpTTS43]

Umpire responsibilities concerning infield catch/no catch has been an area I have been trying to get others to clearly define during pre game in our area. This is one area that seems to get forgotten or put aside when doing pre game in our area. Most guys know rotations, signals, outfield coverage, etc pretty well and do a rather quick pre game. I'm hoping that this will change, for the better, this next year. It's my own "point of emphasis" if you will.

That being said, if there is a call that is not my responsibility and my partner does not make it, I will say/do nothing until approached by my partner. If a cluster arises out of such a circumtance, we now have a learning experience that will reinforce the importance of a thorough pre game and knowing one's responsibilities.

From my experience, doing something wrong on the field, is the best way to cement it in your mind. Coaching and instruction gives us the tools to work with, but we must learn how to use those tools in game situations.

[DG]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Aerosmith still rocks hard, and they are one of my Top 10 all-time favorite bands, so I still consider them, as a group, to be very cool.

Agree, they rock hard, but they are not currently on my ITouch so not in my top 10.

Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Eagles, Bruce Springsteen, Lynnard Skynard, AC/DC, Steely Dan, Joe Cocker, Pink Floyd, Metallica, Allman Brothers, Black Sabbath, Doobie Brothers, Crosby Stills Nash and Young, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Southside Johnny and Asbury Jukes are on the ITouch.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by DG

Agree, they rock hard, but they are not currently on my ITouch so not in my top 10.

Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, Eagles, Bruce Springsteen, Lynnard Skynard, AC/DC, Steely Dan, Joe Cocker, Pink Floyd, Metallica, Allman Brothers, Black Sabbath, Doobie Brothers, Crosby Stills Nash and Young, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Southside Johnny and Asbury Jukes are on the ITouch.

Only 3 of those are in my top 10, but nearly all would make my top 50 except Metallica, Lewis, and the Asbury Jukes.

In semi-order:

KISS, Blue Öyster Cult, Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Rush, Aerosmith, The Doors, The Who, ZZ Top.

Harder than it looks to pick a Top Ten.

[amusedofficial]

I never make a no-call. Not ever. The runner is not safe until he touches the base, he is not safe because the fielder caught the ball on the bounce, no matter how short that bounce was. If the fielder catches the ball before it strikes the ground, the batsman is out and the appropriate signal is given. If I don't say he's out, then the ball is in play unless and until the runner touches first base, at which point the runner is safe or out and the appropriate signal is given.

it is not the role of the umpire to provide direction to the fielders. We call them out when they are out. We call them safe when they are safe.

We do not issue advisory opinions.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

I never make a no-call. Not ever. The runner is not safe until he touches the base, he is not safe because the fielder caught the ball on the bounce, no matter how short that bounce was. If the fielder catches the ball before it strikes the ground, the batsman is out and the appropriate signal is given. If I don't say he's out, then the ball is in play unless and until the runner touches first base, at which point the runner is safe or out and the appropriate signal is given.

it is not the role of the umpire to provide direction to the fielders. We call them out when they are out. We call them safe when they are safe.

We do not issue advisory opinions.

The "no-catch" signal is not ruling a runner safe. The "I've got nothing" after contact bewteen a runner and fielder is not ruling a runner safe.

I don't know your background, training or experience, but since these are taught at proschools and used at all levels of ball including professional, I'd guess you are expressing an uninformed personal opinion.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

I never make a no-call. Not ever. The runner is not safe until he touches the base, he is not safe because the fielder caught the ball on the bounce, no matter how short that bounce was. If the fielder catches the ball before it strikes the ground, the batsman is out and the appropriate signal is given. If I don't say he's out, then the ball is in play unless and until the runner touches first base, at which point the runner is safe or out and the appropriate signal is given.

it is not the role of the umpire to provide direction to the fielders. We call them out when they are out. We call them safe when they are safe.

We do not issue advisory opinions.

Are there any other universally accepted and universally taught mechanics that you choose to unilaterally ignore?

In a two man system, as a BU, do you like to go out on routine fly balls with the bases loaded?

Why not decide that you can call the lines from the B position?

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

it is not the role of the umpire to provide direction to the fielders. We call them out when they are out. We call them safe when they are safe.

We do not issue advisory opinions.

We are not calling them safe. Maybe you are not aware it is a common and accepted practice to use the safe signal to mean "not out" in certain cases. If you use it right it is very helpful.

I too am an amused official who just read a lot of unbelievable nonsense.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by amusedofficial

I never make a no-call. Not ever. ...

amusedofficial,

Then you are not as good an umpire as you could be.

And you have a fundamental misconception regarding the umpire's role in a game.

JM