Horrible Mechanics

[njdevs00cup]

R1 and R2 and one out. I've got the plate. I told my partner during pre-game that I would take the call at third base on a tag up. Batter hits a bloop into center field, which F8 charges and appeared to trap. BU gives no signal and no verbal. Runners don't know whether to return to the base or run. I don't know whether to come up the line to make a call on a possible tag up into 3B. Apparently BU ruled the ball was caught because F8 threw the ball to F3 to double off R1.

The question which popped into my head as I was driving home is what should I have done if the throw went into third base, as this could have been a tag play (assuming R2 went back to tag and the ball was caught) or force play (if the ball wasn't caught)?

[Ump Rube]

I think that you would have to make the call on what you saw. If you have a catch then call on the tag, if you have a trap call on the force. When it's your partner's call and he does nothing you cannot make the call for him, he needs to either call it or ask for help. If you try to make the call for him you run the risk of double-calling the play which I have found to be a bigger problem then not calling anything.

[GA Umpire]

I have a question. Were you already going to 3B? If not, why? If you are going to cover a tag up, then why weren't you getting there as the play developed? You should have been there as soon as the ball was going to the outfield. If you have 3B on the tag up, you should have 3B on the play unless you read it as they would have no chance on him after the ball wasn't caught and stayed at the plate for a possible play. Otherwise, you will be making the call at 3B on the run since you are hanging out at the plate to wait and see if he tags up.

So, as soon as I can see the fly ball is going to the outfield(exception is a ball down RF line), I am heading to 3B to cover the play there while my partner has 2B and possibly 1B.

[JR12]

Why would the PU take a tag up into 3rd? It's the BU call!

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JR12

Why would the PU take a tag up into 3rd? It's the BU call!

No, it is the PU call with R1 and R2. BU with R2 only.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by JR12

Why would the PU take a tag up into 3rd? It's the BU call!

Correct.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by JR12

Why would the PU take a tag up into 3rd? It's the BU call!

So, you are going to leave BU to cover 3 bases on a play which you could help with 1 of them?

And, as Steve said, that is only with an R2 only or there is an R3 at any time. If R1 only or R1 and R2, then PU gets 3B for the play if there is going to be multiple runners such as an R1 and BR now or R2, R1, and BR.

Get out from behind HP and cover a base if possible. Don't leave BU to cover it all at all times. And, this is for hits to the outfield.

[JR12]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

So, you are going to leave BU to cover 3 bases on a play which you could help with 1 of them?

And, as Steve said, that is only with an R2 only or there is an R3 at any time. If R1 only or R1 and R2, then PU gets 3B for the play if there is going to be multiple runners such as an R1 and BR now or R2, R1, and BR.

Get out from behind HP and cover a base if possible. Don't leave BU to cover it all at all times. And, this is for hits to the outfield.

I get out from behind HP, but not in that situation. It's not the way 2 man crew works here. In the OP the Bu has the catch, tag and play at third. I would guess that R1 would have went halfway.

[njdevs00cup]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

So, you are going to leave BU to cover 3 bases on a play which you could help with 1 of them?

And, as Steve said, that is only with an R2 only or there is an R3 at any time. If R1 only or R1 and R2, then PU gets 3B for the play if there is going to be multiple runners such as an R1 and BR now or R2, R1, and BR.

Get out from behind HP and cover a base if possible. Don't leave BU to cover it all at all times. And, this is for hits to the outfield.

GA,

I'm coming up the line to make the call at third on a tag up. The problem I had is that with no catch or no catch verbal or signal, we risk a double call on a force at third. I'm making a call at third base if it is a tag up situation. If the ball is trapped, the force call still should be the call of BU.

[Tim C]

"Why would the PU take a tag up into 3rd? It's the BU call!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR12
Why would the PU take a tag up into 3rd? It's the BU call!

Correct.

As usual I am probably misunderstanding these two posts.

With R1 and R2 and less than 2 out. A tag up and play to third on R2 is 100% the responsibility of the PU.

The only time the PU does not take this call is when the flight of the ball takes him to RF line for a fair/foul call.

Am I missing something or do these two comments above NOT say the BU has the call at third?

It is hard enough for the BU to line up the tag at second, make a judgement on catch/no catch that the tag up at first is a guess after a glance. AND during this the PU would be sitting on his duff.

The PU moves towards the kitchen and then enters to the cut out if there is a runner, fielder and ball for a play.

Regards,

[PeteBooth]

The main problem with your OP is this

Batter hits a bloop into center field, which F8 charges and appeared to trap. BU gives no signal and no verbal.

No one knows what is going on. If the BU gave no signal it appears he has NO CLUE along with the Players and YOU on what's going on.

Each of us has our OWN responsibilities out there.

As both TEE and Rich pointed out with R1/R2 the PU covers third base on the tag UP UNLESS it's a CLEAR CUT Single which from the OP it was not.

Here is what has me puzzled

Apparently BU ruled the ball was caught because F8 threw the ball to F3 to double off R1.

You say APPARENTLY BU Ruled. What's that! Either we have a catch or no catch. We do not have a MAYBE.

Based upon the STRICT wording of your OP it appears NOTHING was called because of your phrase APPARENTLY BU ruled. Therefore, EXACTLY what happened on this play? Was a call on the catch / no catch EVER made?

If R1 was doubled off with an apparent no call on the catch / no catch where was the OM because surely he is going to get tossed.

IMO, once we KNOW what happened then perhaps your question about what to do can be answered more effectively.

Pete Booth

[njdevs00cup]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

The main problem with your OP is this



No one knows what is going on. If the BU gave no signal it appears he has NO CLUE along with the Players and YOU on what's going on.

Each of us has our OWN responsibilities out there.

As both TEE and Rich pointed out with R1/R2 the PU covers third base on the tag UP UNLESS it's a CLEAR CUT Single which from the OP it was not.

Here is what has me puzzled



You say APPARENTLY BU Ruled. What's that! Either we have a catch or no catch. We do not have a MAYBE.

Based upon the STRICT wording of your OP it appears NOTHING was called because of your phrase APPARENTLY BU ruled. Therefore, EXACTLY what happened on this play? Was a call on the catch / no catch EVER made?

If R1 was doubled off with an apparent no call on the catch / no catch where was the OM because surely he is going to get tossed.

IMO, once we KNOW what happened then perhaps your question about what to do can be answered more effectively.

Pete Booth

Pete,

No signal was ever made on catch no catch. The runners, defense and base coaches did not know what to do. The only call which was ever made was the base umpire calling R1 out at first. This is why I say "apparently" caught the ball. The OM showed incredible restraint for a Senior Legion manager (heck a LL OM would be ticked off).

Matt

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Then, if you are unsure of what to do, you can do 2 things. Go with calling "I've got 3rd!" and stick with it. Or, stand back and let your partner have all calls. For me, if there is a question, I would rather be at 3B than to have my BU looking at me like "What is your call?" If you tell him you are there and everyone hears you, then the blame goes on him for not listening. If you stay at HP and say nothing, then you look like the fool. At least yell at him "Staying Home! Staying Home!" If you at least communicate what you are doing, then the blame can be shifted to your partner for not doing something which is his job and he is the one who looks bad.

But, if you just stand there and look like a "deer in the headlights", you look bad. Communicate something to him whether "I've got 3rd!" or "Staying Home!" Either way looks better than just wondering "What is my BU going to do?"

Yes, whether you follow the prescribed, accepted mechanic for the play, or choose to cover third anyway, let your partner know! If I see the ball fall in (I know the OP BU didn't indicate one or the other), I know that the BU is going to have the force play at 3rd, so I begin my retreat with a right-foot drop step, while hollering "I'm going home, John" (if it is indeed John ) twice, so he knows for sure he's got the call. But, if he is an experienced member of the association, he already knows I'm going home, and knows he has 3rd, because we don't invent new mechanics.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

Pete,

No signal was ever made on catch no catch. The runners, defense and base coaches did not know what to do.

I hope you had a POST game with your partner and TOLD him NEXT time signal something.

It's one thing if it's a 'can of corn" or the ball clearly dropped. It's quite another on a Troubled ball

Pete Booth

[njdevs00cup]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth;609668]

I hope you had a POST game with your partner and TOLD him NEXT time signal something.

It's one thing if it's a 'can of corn" or the ball clearly dropped. It's quite another on a Troubled ball

Pete Booth

Pete,

After the game I asked the BU about the call. He said, "In my mind it was a catch!" I explained the confusion the lack of a call caused for all involved and he asked, "Did you think he caught it?" I wished him a good night and checked my list of future assignments and partners.

I can only venture a guess that he was not sure whether the ball was caught or not, figured it was to call nothing and let F8's throw to 1B dictate whether it was a catch or not in his mind.
Matt