I saw it out of the corener of my eye.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by jicecone

OOOOORRRRRR, try this for size.

Don't say anything about the call and after the game speak to the umpires and tell them about your vast experience and diplomatically see if you could help ,what was obviously two inexperienced officials. They may not be receptive to your advice but at least you tried. Hey maybe some day they will pursue this officiating thing and be your partner. What are you going to do then? Every chance I ever had to teach other officials something, I took advantage of. And yes there are some ole geisers (like me) that are STILL learning.

Remember, we are expected to be perfect our very first game and get better from there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a nice day

I was actually taking the advice of many people here to address it during the game and never, EVER do it after. I do not expect umpires at this level to be perfect or even mediocre. I do expect them to have some knowledge of some basic rules(the ball is live if it hits a runner) I do expect them not to lie to me.

Joe in Missouri

[RogersUmp]

I've never seen a 2-man crew at 9U. Must be a pretty wealthy association!

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

I've never seen a 2-man crew at 9U. Must be a pretty wealthy association!

Our league is in Chesterfield, MO...Somehow, they let me park my 1994 Camry there

The three tournaments we have played in have all had two person crews, as well.

Joe

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

I've never seen a 2-man crew at 9U. Must be a pretty wealthy association!

One league I work in the summer uses two man for all games, even 6U. It is run by the city and they use it as a youth work program. Most of the umpires in 8U and 6U are high school kids and the game fees are pretty low. They also use high school kids as scorekeepers. Not sure if they get government funds or not.

I was free one night last week and worked a couple of 6U games with one of the kids. I hope it was helpful to him. He said he had not played much ball and it showed. His mechanics were pretty good, but his rules knowledge needed some work. He did not know a batted ball could hit foul and roll fair. He did not know a batted ball could be in the upper corner of the batter's box and still be fair. He thought a batted ball that hit the plate was automatically foul.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

I was actually taking the advice of many people here to address it during the game and never, EVER do it after. I do not expect umpires at this level to be perfect or even mediocre. I do expect them to have some knowledge of some basic rules(the ball is live if it hits a runner)

Good for you for learning.

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

I do expect them not to lie to me.

There are at least four more likely explanations as to the disagreement than the umpire lying to you. In no particular order:

1. He had the rule wrong.

2. You had the rule wrong.

3. He had the timing of the runner's jump wrong.

4. You had the timing of the runner's jump wrong.

The thing that scares me about your recent run-ins with umpires is that you are quick to assume some sort of malice on their part, as if there is an underhanded reason that they don't call what you think they should be calling.

[jwwashburn]

There are at least four more likely explanations as to the disagreement than the umpire lying to you. In no particular order:

1. He had the rule wrong.

No, he knew the rule. You cannot leave until the pitcher releases.

2. You had the rule wrong.

Nope.

3. He had the timing of the runner's jump wrong.

Since you cannot see the runner and the pitcher's hand from behind the plate there is no way for him to have the timing at all.

4. You had the timing of the runner's jump wrong.

My runner actually did not get a very good jump at all. There is no way in the world he left early. It was not even close.

The thing that scares me about your recent run-ins with umpires is that you are quick to assume some sort of malice on their part, as if there is an underhanded reason that they don't call what you think they should be calling.

Gee whilikers, I am so sorry to have scared you. I assumed no malice on the behalf of the this knucklehead. He made the call because the opposing coach intimidated him. He had no malice, he had to lie to me because he made a call for which he had no explanation.

[kylejt]

All I can tell you is that I clearly saw two runners leave before the ball reached the batter last week(LL rules). For me, they were easy calls to make, and didn't effect my ability to call balls and strikes.

I don't know what happened at your game, I wasn't there. But trust me, I can make that call.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by kylejt

All I can tell you is that I clearly saw two runners leave before the ball reached the batter last week(LL rules). For me, they were easy calls to make, and didn't effect my ability to call balls and strikes.

I don't know what happened at your game, I wasn't there. But trust me, I can make that call.

Your example is even worse. You are watching something other than the ball while the pitch is on the way to the plate.

How in the world does this not mess with your balls and strikes? Do you dust off the plate while a pitch is on the way, as well. There is not any sort of umpire training that I have ever heard of that would have the Home Plate Umpire looking at something like this. You are calling the pitches, you need to follow the ball.

Joe in Missouri

[David B]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

I was actually taking the advice of many people here to address it during the game and never, EVER do it after. I do not expect umpires at this level to be perfect or even mediocre. I do expect them to have some knowledge of some basic rules(the ball is live if it hits a runner) I do expect them not to lie to me.

Joe in Missouri

Bottom line is that you don't know what the umpire saw, so you cannot say he is lying to you.

He is the umpire and if he said he left early, then he left early. We as coaches and parents just have to live with it.

We all make mistakes, sounds like he might have made one, but you can't just make accusations for things you don't know.

I used to call small ball, and you can easily see runners at 1st or 2nd if they leave early. Now R3 that's too hard, but easy for R1 or R2.

Thanks
David

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by David B

Bottom line is that you don't know what the umpire saw, so you cannot say he is lying to you.

He is the umpire and if he said he left early, then he left early. We as coaches and parents just have to live with it.

We all make mistakes, sounds like he might have made one, but you can't just make accusations for things you don't know.

I used to call small ball, and you can easily see runners at 1st or 2nd if they leave early. Now R3 that's too hard, but easy for R1 or R2.

Thanks
David

You know what else the PU should do during the pitch? He should check the left fielder's glove to make sure it is not oversized...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

Your example is even worse. You are watching something other than the ball while the pitch is on the way to the plate.

How in the world does this not mess with your balls and strikes? Do you dust off the plate while a pitch is on the way, as well. There is not any sort of umpire training that I have ever heard of that would have the Home Plate Umpire looking at something like this. You are calling the pitches, you need to follow the ball.

Joe in Missouri

When you're working the plate in a gmae involving older kids, do you not know when R1 (or R2 or R3) is stealing, while the ball is still on the way to the plate? Wouldn't this be the same type of call?

[David B]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

When you're working the plate in a gmae involving older kids, do you not know when R1 (or R2 or R3) is stealing, while the ball is still on the way to the plate? Wouldn't this be the same type of call?

That's the point I was trying to make. I agree totally. You have to watch R3for a squeeze, you have to watch R2 for obstruction ....

Maybe i've just done this too long, but you can't have tunnel vision and be a good umpire. Now a newbie I can understand, but if you're not watching the game, you're going to miss something sooner or later.

Thansk
David

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

You know what else the PU should do during the pitch? He should check the left fielder's glove to make sure it is not oversized...

How do you explain catchers seeing runners go, as the pitch is coming in? Look, it's really not that hard, at least for me.

Hey, maybe it is just me, because I've been tested out as having pretty remarkable peripheral vision. Now Joe, a lot of us are telling you that we can see runners move, and still track pitches. The more this goes on, the further you are in the minority on not being able to see this. Maybe, just maybe, it's not us.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

When you're working the plate in a gmae involving older kids, do you not know when R1 (or R2 or R3) is stealing, while the ball is still on the way to the plate? Wouldn't this be the same type of call?

Sure, I know if a runner is stealing. But, I would have no way of knowing if he left the base before the pitcher released. It is physically impossible to see the pitcher's hand and the runner's foot at 1B at the same time and the PU that is trying to do it would will miss a lot of pitches.

Serious softball umpires would be busting a gut at this discussion. The rule for this is the same. They would never dream of trying to call a runner leaving early from behind the plate-ESPECIALLY one at first.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by kylejt

How do you explain catchers seeing runners go, as the pitch is coming in? Look, it's really not that hard, at least for me.

Hey, maybe it is just me, because I've been tested out as having pretty remarkable peripheral vision. Now Joe, a lot of us are telling you that we can see runners move, and still track pitches. The more this goes on, the further you are in the minority on not being able to see this. Maybe, just maybe, it's not us.

Kyle, of course you can see the runner move. What you cannot do is see the ball leave the pitcher's hand and the runner's foot leave the base. There is no way. You would have to look at two places at the same time.

In FP Softball(same rule there-cannot leave the base before the pitcher releases) the well coached runner is in motion long before she leaves the base.