I saw it out of the corener of my eye.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

Sure, I know if a runner is stealing. But, I would have no way of knowing if he left the base before the pitcher released.

All (or most) of us have agreed that the benefit of the doubt goes to the runner. But if the runner moves enough to have taken 2 steps, it's pretty clear that he wasn't on the base at the time he was required to still be on the base.

And, frankly, if I think a team is trying to "cheat" the system, I'm more likley to look more closely at a play or two, and give up soemthing on the pitch.

[jwwashburn]

Bob,

There was a Base Umpire. As the PU, even if a runner left so early that I would have somehow seen it while doing my job I am still not going to call it. Like I said before, I have done many hundreds of FP Softball games and never have I called a runner for leaving early from the PU position and if I had, I might have gotten punched in the nose by my partner. It is almost never that a runner leaves way early. it is a very close call nearly every time. That is another reason that there is no chance that the PU can call it.

If the PU wants to make everyone know that he thinks his partner sucks, he will call a runner leaving too early. Does he wants to make sure everyone knows he sucks, also? Then, like in the OP, he will call it only after the Defensive Coach grouses and be dead wrong about it.

Joe

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

Kyle, of course you can see the runner move. What you cannot do is see the ball leave the pitcher's hand and the runner's foot leave the base. There is no way. You would have to look at two places at the same time.

In FP Softball(same rule there-cannot leave the base before the pitcher releases) the well coached runner is in motion long before she leaves the base.

Don't assume others can't do something just because you can't.

Vision skills can be learned. Seek some advice on drills you can do.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Don't assume others can't do something just because you can't.

Vision skills can be learned. Seek some advice on drills you can do.

We have now entered the twilight zone.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Don't assume others can't do something just because you can't.

Vision skills can be learned. Seek some advice on drills you can do.

Can you see the runner leaving from behind the plate as the pitcher is releasing the baseball. I doubt it. Go try it sometime.

And Kyle...in your games, the runner can't leave until the pitch crosses home plate. Well, duh, that's a whole lot easier to see a runner leaving early. Trying to see it while watching the pitcher release the baseball is foolhardy. Your attention can't be split, and sorry Rich, the human eye does not have the same range as a fly or a lizard. You cannot look directly forward and 90° to the right simultaneously.

And besides, Joe said there was a base umpire!!! That is his call. Why would the plate umpire interject where he doesn't belong? That should be the whole point here: Why didn't the base umpire do his job to begin with, so Joe would not have to argue with the lying PU who said that his runner left early when according to Joe, whose opinion I trust more than the clown behind the plate, he did not.

[Ump Rube]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Can you see the runner leaving from behind the plate as the pitcher is releasing the baseball. I doubt it. Go try it sometime.

And Kyle...in your games, the runner can't leave until the pitch crosses home plate. Well, duh, that's a whole lot easier to see a runner leaving early. Trying to see it while watching the pitcher release the baseball is foolhardy. Your attention can't be split, and sorry Rich, the human eye does not have the same range as a fly or a lizard. You cannot look directly forward and 90° to the right simultaneously.

And besides, Joe said there was a base umpire!!! That is his call. Why would the plate umpire interject where he doesn't belong? That should be the whole point here: Why didn't the base umpire do his job to begin with, so Joe would not have to argue with the lying PU who said that his runner left early when according to Joe, whose opinion I trust more than the clown behind the plate, he did not.

This might just be fuel on the fire, but from behind the plate the angle to 1B would be a little less the 45°. I agree you cannot split your vision 50/50 on this, but it does allow you to see the movement with your peripheral vision well. But truly getting back to the point, with 2-men this is the BU's call all the way, unless a runner at 2B which might be the PU's depending on 60'/90'. With 1-man do your best to see the movement, which is what is picked up best with peripheral.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

This might just be fuel on the fire, but from behind the plate the angle to 1B would be a little less the 45°. I agree you cannot split your vision 50/50 on this, but it does allow you to see the movement with your peripheral vision well. But truly getting back to the point, with 2-men this is the BU's call all the way, unless a runner at 2B which might be the PU's depending on 60'/90'. With 1-man do your best to see the movement, which is what is picked up best with peripheral.

Yes, you are correct with the angle, and yes, you can detect some movement. But can you accurately call the leaving early while still focusing on the ball that is being released? That is why I said earlier that I'm not calling that from the plate unless the runner is blatantly off the base, as in 3 or 4 steps, where it is obvious. In this case however, Joe said that he was in a position to see both the pitcher and the runner in his direct line of vision, and that the runner actually got a late jump from 1st base, well after the pitcher released the ball. So my big concern is that the PU made the call to "make up" for the ones that the BU (who must be a real dandy umpire...probably playing pocket pool with his Johnson out there) had missed.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

Bob,

There was a Base Umpire.

Sorry. I thought we were discussing whether a PU had the ability to make this call.

I didn't realize we were (still) discussing whether a particular umpire in your particular game made a correct call.

11.02(g)

[David B]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

All (or most) of us have agreed that the benefit of the doubt goes to the runner. But if the runner moves enough to have taken 2 steps, it's pretty clear that he wasn't on the base at the time he was required to still be on the base.

And, frankly, if I think a team is trying to "cheat" the system, I'm more likley to look more closely at a play or two, and give up soemthing on the pitch.

Thanks Bob for a very clear post. That's exactly the philosophy that I've seen used and it works very well for me also.

Thanks
David

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Sorry. I thought we were discussing whether a PU had the ability to make this call.

I didn't realize we were (still) discussing whether a particular umpire in your particular game made a correct call.

11.02(g)

I will be glad to discuss either. It is impossible for the PU to make this call accurately. You cannot see the runner's foot and the pitcher's hand at the same time unless you are him: and he would have a hard time because I do not think he can actually focus those things....they kinda go wherever.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Can you see the runner leaving from behind the plate as the pitcher is releasing the baseball. I doubt it. Go try it sometime.

And Kyle...in your games, the runner can't leave until the pitch crosses home plate. Well, duh, that's a whole lot easier to see a runner leaving early. Trying to see it while watching the pitcher release the baseball is foolhardy. Your attention can't be split, and sorry Rich, the human eye does not have the same range as a fly or a lizard. You cannot look directly forward and 90° to the right simultaneously.

And besides, Joe said there was a base umpire!!! That is his call. Why would the plate umpire interject where he doesn't belong? That should be the whole point here: Why didn't the base umpire do his job to begin with, so Joe would not have to argue with the lying PU who said that his runner left early when according to Joe, whose opinion I trust more than the clown behind the plate, he did not.

1) it's less than 45 degrees

2) Catcher's can see the movement and still catch the pitch.

3) All those fancy "no-look" passes you see in basketball are because the players CAN see the movement (and the uniform color) in their peripheral vision.

4) Running backs make all those fancy cuts because they can see the peripheral activity.

But you need to learn how to do it.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

1) it's less than 45 degrees

2) Catcher's can see the movement and still catch the pitch.

3) All those fancy "no-look" passes you see in basketball are because the players CAN see the movement (and the uniform color) in their peripheral vision.

4) Running backs make all those fancy cuts because they can see the peripheral activity.

But you need to learn how to do it.

Rich, it is not movement that you have to see to make this call. It is the foot of the baserunner leaving the base before the ball leaves the pitcher's hand. You cannot do it, you never have done it, you never will do it and nobody else can, has or will, either.

Even the proper mechanics makes this a difficult call for the BU. it is very rare for the runner to leave early by a lot.

I probably called 10 girls leave early as BU in about 40 FP games I did on the bases last summer-mostly competitive tournaments. I had about the same number called by my partners when I was PU in about 50 games. I did not see one of them leave early when I was PU.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

3) All those fancy "no-look" passes you see in basketball are because the players CAN see the movement (and the uniform color) in their peripheral vision.

Hey that's kinda funny: I was refereeing basketball last night, standing behind the endline, and one team passed the ball to me 3 times. Never happened to me before.

[waltjp]

[jwwashburn]

As long as people keep telling me they can see Wichita while standing on the beach in California facing the Pacific Ocean, I will tell them they cannot.