Advice needed on "Hands part of the bat" myth

[TwoBits]

Long time umpire here going to coach my two sons' 10 and under rec team. The league uses FED rules with some modifications, and while the umpires are supposed to be certified, the ones they get for this age group are often teenagers or dads who think they know the rules even though they've never cracked open a rule book.

To my question: How do you explain to one of these umpires the falacy of the "hand part of the bat" myth? FED rules (as does OBR) does not state this clearly. As an umpire, I've tried to explain to coaches using rule 8.1.1d which states:
A batter becomes a runner with the right to attempt to score by advancing to first, second, third and home bases in the listed order when...a pitched ball hits his person or clothing provided he does not strike at the ball; or (1) If he makes no effort to avoid being hit, or if the umpire calls the pitched ball a strike......
I've also tried to use Casebook 8.1.1D: When may a batter be hit by a pitch and not be awarded first base? RULING: 1) The pitch is a strike. 2) The batter does not attempt to avoid being hit. 3) With no runners on base, the pitch is illegal and is not ball four. 4) The batter attempted to hit the pitch.

I've tried to show a coach that "hand part of the bat" is not listed as an exception, therefore the batter gets first base. Softball rules books are very clear on the subject, and this is one case I wish baseball rules books would follow.

Anyway, how do some of you other umpires handle coaches who insist on this, and some of you more knowledgeable coaches hand umpires who still believe this?

[shickenbottom]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Long time umpire here going to coach my two sons' 10 and under rec team. The league uses FED rules with some modifications, and while the umpires are supposed to be certified, the ones they get for this age group are often teenagers or dads who think they know the rules even though they've never cracked open a rule book.

To my question: How do you explain to one of these umpires the falacy of the "hand part of the bat" myth? FED rules (as does OBR) does not state this clearly. As an umpire, I've tried to explain to coaches using rule 8.1.1d which states:
A batter becomes a runner with the right to attempt to score by advancing to first, second, third and home bases in the listed order when...a pitched ball hits his person or clothing provided he does not strike at the ball; or (1) If he makes no effort to avoid being hit, or if the umpire calls the pitched ball a strike......
I've also tried to use Casebook 8.1.1D: When may a batter be hit by a pitch and not be awarded first base? RULING: 1) The pitch is a strike. 2) The batter does not attempt to avoid being hit. 3) With no runners on base, the pitch is illegal and is not ball four. 4) The batter attempted to hit the pitch.

I've tried to show a coach that "hand part of the bat" is not listed as an exception, therefore the batter gets first base. Softball rules books are very clear on the subject, and this is one case I wish baseball rules books would follow.

Anyway, how do some of you other umpires handle coaches who insist on this, and some of you more knowledgeable coaches hand umpires who still believe this?

Twobits, Going to the Dark Side I see.

To answer your question, it may be smart ***, but ask: "When was the last time you went and purchased new hands to go with the Bat?"

The hands are attached to the person, and the rules state any part of the person so long as they are not attempting to hit the pitch. Be aware that there is also the provision that the batter needs to make some attempt to get out of the way.

[mbyron]

Question: how do you explain the fallacy of the "hand part of the bat" myth?

Answer: don't explain. Assert: "by rule, they are part of the player, not the bat." It helps if you know the rule number.

When dealing with definitions, no explanation is possible or necessary. What needs explanation is the persistence of the (dumb) myth.

[btdt]

Just for the heck of it, print out the 40 myth's of baseball and give it to them.
Might get them thinking

http://www.eteamz.com/baseball/rules/obr/myths/

[gsarosi]

Originally Posted by btdt

Just for the heck of it, print out the 40 myth's of baseball and give it to them.
Might get them thinking

Top 40 Baseball Rule Myths | eteamz

In my teams game yesterday both #1 and #2 from this list happened. For #1 "hands part of the bat" the umpire got it right, and I questioned him, mainly because my assistant and my son (the pitcher) were positive that the hands were part of the bat, the ump told me I was wrong and that was that. For #2, my player beat out a bunt single and then wandered into fair territory on his way back to first they tagged him and the ump called him out. I argued and the home plate ump said that I was right but that he can't overrule the field ump and he was young and new so now he knows the correct rule.

[chicago11]

I saw this happen a long time ago. A batter got hit on the hand and the umpire awarded first base. The deffensive coach came out and pleaded with the umpire "Its foul the hands are part of the bat." The umpire held his ground and the coach pleaded (it was more whining than argiung.) He kept whininh the entire half inning. The ump ignored him completely.

The next inning as the same team took the field, the other coach went out and said something to the umpire. The umpire cracked up but waved the coach off. I later asked the coach (a neighbor) what he said. He told the umpire that he shouldn't allow the entire defense to play the filed while holding part of the bat - safety issue.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by gsarosi

I argued and the home plate ump said that I was right but that he can't overrule the field ump and he was young and new so now he knows the correct rule.

I have a problem with the PU doing this. If he is so experienced, then why did he throw the BU under the bus and use his age to justify it.

I am OK with him informing the BU so he knows the rule for the next time. I am not OK with him telling a coach that his partner blew it and will call it right from now on.

It sucks that the BU didn't know the rule and misapplied it. It is made worse by the PU not knowing when to shut his mouth. Now, he has just made a fool out of the BU and has no clue he did.

Bad partner, bad!!!!!!

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Anyway, how do some of you other umpires handle coaches who insist on this, and some of you more knowledgeable coaches hand umpires who still believe this?

It depends.
Are you trying to explain this to a coach during a game or over a cold one?

If it's during a game there really should be no trying to explain.
"Coach the ball hit the batter, it was not a strike, he gets first."
We're not out there to give rule seminars during the game.
However, since it is a rules interp issue the coach has the right to question us on this so if he insists I'll say something like "Coach, I understand what you're saying and I can tell you that this is an often misunderstood rule, the hands are part of the batter not the bat."
After this I'm not allowing anymore insisting.

The coach is not using rule book references and neither am I. I'm not going to go on the defensive and try to prove my position. My position is the default position, the coach would have to prove his position with rule book references (which in this case he obviously cannot) not vice versa.


If it's over a cold one I still doubt if I would spoon feed him rules. Challenge him to find a rule that proves his assertion, maybe that will get him to open the book.
Afterall, he's still just a coach and your interp is the only one that matters. Let him attempt to change your mind

[Rich Ives]

And if you're a coach who knows the rule and dealing with an inexperienced umpire that doesn't - protest.

[Dave Reed]

Does this help? From the FED Casebook:

7.3.4 SITUATION B: B1 is at bat with a three-ball, two-strike count. He swings at the next pitch and the ball hits his right fist and, without contacting the bat, goes into foul territory. F2 retrieves the ball and throws to F3 who is covering first base and tags B1 with the ball. RULING: As soon as the ball hit the batter it became dead. B1 is declared out. To have the play ruled a foul ball, the ball would have to have hit the bat of B1 before it touched his hand.

[505 ump]

Like Rich pointed out. No use arguing, just protest his ruling. An umpire that losses a couple of protests will learn the rules sooner or later.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Does this help? From the FED Casebook:

7.3.4 SITUATION B: B1 is at bat with a three-ball, two-strike count. He swings at the next pitch and the ball hits his right fist and, without contacting the bat, goes into foul territory. F2 retrieves the ball and throws to F3 who is covering first base and tags B1 with the ball. RULING: As soon as the ball hit the batter it became dead. B1 is declared out. To have the play ruled a foul ball, the ball would have to have hit the bat of B1 before it touched his hand.

Probably not. In the situation the ball rolled foul, and an inexperienced umpire would just call it a foul since, "the hands are part of the bat".

[TussAgee11]

Ask the Coach if the player drops his hands on the ground when he runs to first base

Make sure there are no Jim Abbott's on the field before doing so.

[TwoBits]

Bdtd: I keep an expanded copy of the rules myth document with me. If you search my name, I'm sure you'll find one of my posts about it. I post it near the concession stands in hope that somebody might actually educate themselves in the rules.

Rich: Unfortunately that wouldn't work in my state (Missouri) since no protests are allowed. A rules misinterpretation is supposed to be taken care of on the field by the coach pulling out the rule book and showing where the official is incorrect. It very difficult to show a rule that doesn't exist.

I've tried the "I've never seen a bat with hands attached" approach as an umpire. It never seems to work.

I may try to pull out the FED softball book and use it. It clearly says that the hands are not part of the bat. An inexperienced coach/umpire really doesn't understand that baseball and softball are different games and I may be able to use that.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Bdtd: Rich: Unfortunately that wouldn't work in my state (Missouri) since no protests are allowed. A rules misinterpretation is supposed to be taken care of on the field by the coach pulling out the rule book and showing where the official is incorrect. It very difficult to show a rule that doesn't exist.

Heh, heh! I guess I would never be able to umpire in Missouri, because if a coach pulls out a rule book on me, he's done!

This is probably one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of - making a coach pull a rule book out on an umpire!