Advice needed on "Hands part of the bat" myth

[johnnyg08]

reviving this thread just as a nice piece of easy reading...anybody had a coach come out and question this one, this season?

[Kevin Finnerty]

I umpire and I coach.

As a coach, I had what should be a knowledgeable PONY umpire call a foul when a pitch hit my player on the back of the hand as he tried to lean away.

Umpire Tom: "Foul ball! Batter, back in the box."
Me (quietly and patiently): "Tom, the ball hit him, not the bat."
Tom: "Kevin, it hit his hand; the hands are part of the bat."
Me: [shakes head no]
Tom: "You're an umpire; I'm surprised you don't know that."
Me: [raised eyebrows, incredulous grin]

(Arguing in public with a guy like that in front of others is a sign of stupidity)

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

I umpire and I coach.

As a coach, I had what should be a knowledgeable PONY umpire call a foul when a pitch hit my player on the back of the hand as he tried to lean away.

Umpire Tom: "Foul ball! Batter, back in the box."
Me (quietly and patiently): "Tom, the ball hit him, not the bat."
Tom: "Kevin, it hit his hand; the hands are part of the bat."
Me: [shakes head no]
Tom: "You're an umpire; I'm surprised you don't know that."
Me: [raised eyebrows, incredulous grin]

(Arguing in public with a guy like that in front of others is a sign of stupidity)

great story!! i can visualize this discussion at baseball park america

[RogersUmp]

I was trying to think where a myth like this would originate? Who thought this one up? All I could come up with is it makes the call easier for the lazy umpire. You don't have to determine if the ball hit the hands or the bat because it's all the same call. Somewhere on a sandlot field someone proabably made it up to make the call easier...it's always a foul ball and requires no determination if the ball hit the bat or the hands.

TwoBits - I think posting the 40 myths at the little league ballpark is a great idea! Hopefully people will share their wealth of new knowledge!!

[Kevin Finnerty]

A parent at a recent game after I call a guy out on a banger: "Come on, Blue, tie goes to the runner!"

Sideline conversation with coach during a substitution: "You know, Casey [his actual name], your parents combine more words with less knowledge than any group of parents in the greater Los Angeles area."

Reaction: couldn't stop laughing long enough to respond. Every time I looked at him the rest of the day and after the game, he started chuckling.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

I was trying to think where a myth like this would originate? Who thought this one up? ...

RogersUmp,

I do not know the origin of this myth, but perhaps its from:

Originally Posted by Laws of Cricket

8. Contact with the ball
In these Laws,
(a) reference to the bat shall imply that the bat is held in the batsman’s hand or a glove worn on his hand, unless stated otherwise.

(b) contact between the ball and
either (i) the bat itself
or (ii) the batsman’s hand holding the bat
or (iii) any part of a glove worn on the batsman’s hand holding the bat
or (iv) any additional materials permitted under 3, 5 or 6
shall be regarded as the ball striking or touching the bat, or being struck by the bat.

Law 6 (The bat) - Laws - Laws of Cricket - Laws & Spirit - Lord's

JM

[Forest Ump]

I think you can count on the rules myths coming up in any youth game. That's where the myths thrive until they can bubble to the surface and get shot down by a good umpire.

I called an 11-12 yo game last month. The coach wanted a strike because the batter did not pull the bat back on a bunt attempt. Same coach in another game claimed he could change the batting order if the batters had not come up yet. I make it a point to quietly tell the coach the proper rule. If he becomes a rat, I'm not so quite.

[Chris_Hickman]

Tell the ump " Look blue... go to Dick's Sporting Goods, walk to the team sports section and look at the bats that are on the rack. Are there any hands attached to bat handle?" Then throw in a " I heard Lenscrafters is having a 2 for 1 sale this weekend..so you and your partner can save some money" Yah.... umpires love to hear that!

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Forest Ump

I think you can count on the rules myths coming up in any youth game. That's where the myths thrive until they can bubble to the surface and get shot down by a good umpire.

I called an 11-12 yo game last month. The coach wanted a strike because the batter did not pull the bat back on a bunt attempt. Same coach in another game claimed he could change the batting order if the batters had not come up yet. I make it a point to quietly tell the coach the proper rule. If he becomes a rat, I'm not so quite.

The parents at premier varsity games blather as mindlessly as any youth crowd. And I can assert that there is an occasional coach who is as lacking in knowledge as possible and still be allowed to coach kids.

Another recent encounter:

Coach: "I played pro ball for 12 years for four different organizations, and I have never seen that call."
Me: "That's great. How much experience do you have with high school?"

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Coach: "I played pro ball for 12 years for four different organizations, and I have never seen that call."
Me: "That's great. How much experience do you have with high school?"

Judging from some of the people I interview lately, he may have said he had twelve years of playing HS too.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Bdtd: Rich: Unfortunately that wouldn't work in my state (Missouri) since no protests are allowed. A rules misinterpretation is supposed to be taken care of on the field by the coach pulling out the rule book and showing where the official is incorrect. It very difficult to show a rule that doesn't exist.

Heh, heh! I guess I would never be able to umpire in Missouri, because if a coach pulls out a rule book on me, he's done!

This is probably one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of - making a coach pull a rule book out on an umpire!

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Heh, heh! I guess I would never be able to umpire in Missouri, because if a coach pulls out a rule book on me, he's done!

This is probably one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of - making a coach pull a rule book out on an umpire!

That's not exactly how it works. If a coach feels we made a mistake in the application of the rules, he requests we talk it between the umpires. If we decide in a way he still thinks is incorrect, he states he's protesting the call. The coach then has 10 minutes to use materials (see #3 below) to find our mistake. If the mistake is found, we fix it. If not, the decision stands.

Originally Posted by MSHSAA Baseball Manual

G. PROTEST PROCEDURE (MSHSAA Board Policy): The Board of Directors
adopted the following Policy, in March, 1997, to address protests.
The Board acknowledges that mistakes are made by umpires in judgment
and even sometimes in misapplication of game rules. However, the
decisions rendered by umpires at the contest site are to be final and any
further process other than the one outlined below would not truly serve a
useful purpose in the overall scope of high school athletics.
1. Within the procedures established within each individual sport rule
code, the head coach must request a review of an umpire's application
of a rule through appropriate channels.
2. If, after the review is complete, the coach still believes there has been
a misapplication of a rule by an umpire(s), the coach shall then file a
formal verbal protest with the game umpires who will then notify the
opposing coach immediately of the protest. A coach shall not protest
a decision of judgment.
3. Following this notification of protest, the head coach shall be allowed
approximately ten minutes to use his/her National Federation Rules
Book, National Federation Case Book, MSHSAA Rules Meeting Announcements
and/or MSHSAA Sport Manual to locate and show the
game umpire(s) the appropriate rule reference which clarifies a misapplication
of the game rule. If the head coach does not have personal
copies of the above mentioned materials at the game site or the
specific rule reference(s) or case book play(s) cannot be located
within the maximum allowable ten minutes, the protest shall automatically
be disallowed and the game shall continue from the point of interruption.
If a rule reference(s) or case book play(s) is found that
indicates a misapplication of a rule has occurred, the umpire’s decision
shall be corrected at that time before any further action occurs,
and the game shall be resumed from the point of interruption after the
correction as provided in the contest rules. When appropriate, the
game umpires may assist the head coach in locating appropriate rule
and case book references.
4. All protests shall be resolved at the site before any further game action
occurs.
5. Protests that are not filed in a timely manner by that sport rules code
shall be automatically disallowed.
6. The MSHSAA Board of Directors and/or Staff shall not review game
protests.
NOTE: Protests concerning matters of an official's judgment shall
NOT be considered.

[Aging_Arbiter]

Two bits ~ an example I like to use for coaches and umpires alike: If the hands are part of the bat, and only the offense can use a bat......Coach, when your team is on defense, they have to leave their hands in the dugout.

[dash_riprock]

Whenever I hear "tie goes to the runner" I answer with "I guess that's where the expression 'tieing out a base hit' comes from."

[Steve87]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

RogersUmp,

I do not know the origin of this myth, but perhaps its from:


Law 6 (The bat) - Laws - Laws of Cricket - Laws & Spirit - Lord's

JM

JM your are done memorizing NFHS, CCA and OBR and have now moved on to Cricket?

I tip my hat to you. We gotta work a game together soon, and I'll buy the post game refreshments.