How can I prove this?

[harmbu]

FED rules. #2 is the DH batting for #25. #2 reaches second base. I want to enter #25 to pinch run for #2. I ask to make sure that I can re-enter #2 the next time the spot in the lineup comes up and then still have a re-entry for #25 since he is also a starter. PU told me to show him in the rule book (which he has to allow in our state) that I could do that and he would allow it. I know both players have a re-entry since they are starters, but I could not find a place that would convince them that I was right. Can anyone give me a rule reference to use to show this in the future?

Thanks

[SAump]

Originally Posted by harmbu

FED rules. #2 is the DH batting for #25. #2 reaches second base. I want to enter #25 to pinch run for #2. I ask to make sure that I can re-enter #2 the next time the spot in the lineup comes up and then still have a re-entry for #25 since he is also a starter. PU told me to show him in the rule book (which he has to allow in our state) that I could do that and he would allow it. I know both players have a re-entry since they are starters, but I could not find a place that would convince them that I was right. Can anyone give me a rule reference to use to show this in the future?

Thanks

He cannot pinch run for the DH.
His name should not be listed as a sub on the line-up card.

[ManInBlue]

If the defensive player hits or runs for the DH then the DH role is finished. If you allow #25 to run, #2 is no longer DH for him. If you bring back #2, #25 cannot play defense. You now have EITHER #2 or #25 in the game, but no longer both.

This is not a substitution as in bringing in #4 to DH rather than #2.

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by harmbu

How can I prove this?

You can't.

[DG]

Case book 3.1.4 Situation C: F4, for whom the DH is batting, pinch hits or pinch runs for the DH. RULING: The DH position is eliminated for the remainder of the game. However, the starting DH could re-enter as a player but not in the role of DH. If the does re-enter, he must re-enter in the same position in the batting order, replacing F4.

That covers part of your question but not whether F4 can re-enter but seems logical since he has only left the game once and he was a starter.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by DG

Case book 3.1.4 Situation C: F4, for whom the DH is batting, pinch hits or pinch runs for the DH. RULING: The DH position is eliminated for the remainder of the game. However, the starting DH could re-enter as a player but not in the role of DH. If the does re-enter, he must re-enter in the same position in the batting order, replacing F4.

That covers part of your question but not whether F4 can re-enter but seems logical since he has only left the game once and he was a starter.

There's also a FED interp from several years ago that alloows both starters to re-enter -- just as the OP wanted to do.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's also a FED interp from several years ago that alloows both starters to re-enter -- just as the OP wanted to do.

But that's an old interp though right?

[DG]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

But that's an old interp though right?

Under the case book play we know that the starting DH may re-enter but not in role of DH. F4 was a starter on defense who went in offensively (and thereby eliminated the DH), then left the game. Under what logic would we allow the original DH to re-enter the game but not F4, who was also a starter, and has only left the game once?

What difference does it make how old the interp is? I started keeping the official interps in 04, and don't see it back that far, but so what?

[umpjong]

Its definitely legal..........

pg 29 rule 3-1-art.3 should cover it...
Any of the starting players may be withdrawn and re enter once, including a player who was the designated hitter, provided such player occupies the same batting position whenever he is in the line up. The pitcher is governed by Art.2 (which deals with his replacement pitching to one batter etc. nothing to do with returning to the line up.)

[bossman72]

Let's break down your example to show what you can do:


#2 Jones is batting for #25 Smith.

--Jones is on 2nd. Smith enters to pinch run. (DH is now terminated and Jones has been out of the game once).

--Jones re-enters. (Smith has now been out of the game once and has re-entry eligibility).

--Smith re-enters for Jones (Jones is now done for the day).

--Fred substitutes for Smith (Smith is now done for the day).


But as the original poster noted, there's no concrete evidence in the rule or case book to show you can do this.

[DG]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Let's break down your example to show what you can do:


#2 Jones is batting for #25 Smith.

--Jones is on 2nd. Smith enters to pinch run. (DH is now terminated and Jones has been out of the game once).

--Jones re-enters. (Smith has now been out of the game once and has re-entry eligibility).

--Smith re-enters for Jones (Jones is now done for the day).

--Fred substitutes for Smith (Smith is now done for the day).


But as the original poster noted, there's no concrete evidence in the rule or case book to show you can do this.

Starters may leave the game once and subsequently re-enter. Smith was in the game when he went in to run for Jones, thereby eliminated DH. He leaves. He can re-enter. How much concrete do we need?

[David B]

Originally Posted by DG

Starters may leave the game once and subsequently re-enter. Smith was in the game when he went in to run for Jones, thereby eliminated DH. He leaves. He can re-enter. How much concrete do we need?

Exactly. DH is a starter. We always teach if you have the DH you have 10 starters. Go from there.

Actually had a coach do this a few weeks ago and it worked.

Thanks
David

[SAump]

I have no argument if a substitute player fills in as pinch runner for the DH.
I would allow the DH to return to DH.

BRD 62 Batter: DH: Player returns offensively
FED: A player may leave the line-up and return offensively and/or defensively under the reentry rule. (3-1-3)

Connecting the dots, can both of them continue in the ballgame in their previous roles?

BRD 67 Batter: DH: Pinch hitter/runner for DH
FED: A pinch hitter or pinch runner for the DH becomes the DH. (3-1-4; 3-1-4 b) Except: The DH is terminated if the player for whom the DH currently hits (or any player for whom he has batted), pinch hits or pinch runs for him. (3-1-4a and c).

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SAump

I have no argument if a substitute player fills in as pinch runner for the DH.
I would allow the DH to return to DH.

BRD 62 Batter: DH: Player returns offensively
FED: A player may leave the line-up and return offensively and/or defensively under the reentry rule. (3-1-3)

BRD 67 Batter: DH: Pinch hitter/runner for DH
FED: A pinch hitter or pinch runner for the DH becomes the DH. (3-1-4; 3-1-4 b) Except: The DH is terminated if the player for whom the DH currently hits (or any player for whom he has batted), pinch hits or pinch runs for him. (3-1-4a and c).

Connecting the dots, can both of them continue in the ballgame in their previous roles?

No, and there's no requirement stating that they have to do so.

[UmpJM]

Let me sum this up...

The rules and case plays clearly state that the coach's desire to substitute the "player being batted for" for the DH is perfectly legal.

This would, in fact, terminate the role of the DH for that team. But, not the player who was fulfilling that role. As a starter, he has left the game once, and has one re-entry remaining.

The player being batted for is also a starter and has not yet left the game.

Everyone but SAUmp agrees with this.

If that doesn't prove it, I don't know what does.

JM