Twins/Mariners Ichiro play at 1B

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

It was obvious he ran out of the base path TO AVOID A TAG. Once he had both feet clearly on the turf between the coach's box and the dirt he was out. The running lane is three feet from 1B and there is another three feet of dirt to the turf. That means he was laterally 6 feet away from the bag.

Sorry Mr Rogers, that is not a correct statement. Runner must stay within a 6ft lane (3 ft either direction), directly toward the base from the point a tag attempt is made (IE: when F3 made the tag attempt).

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Yes, though we concluded in that thread that the appeal was not properly constituted for a different reason.

Ok, i see what you're saying.

I read another thread mentioned in the Laz Diaz thread which also confirmed that if the D does something 'unmistakable' that you should award the appeal and call him out.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I disagree. The distinction between retouch and missed base appeals has nothing to do with how obvious the appeal is.

The two appeals are governed by different rules. 7.08(d) and 7.10(a) for retouch appeals, and 7.10(b) and 7.10(d) for missed base appeals.

Especially extending 7.10(d) to all bases makes a difference since it includes the expression "makes no attempt to return." That expression does not appear in the rule for retouch appeals.

Most umpires would argue 7-10(b) isn't about a missed base appeal. They would state, "It's an appeal by the defense about a requirement to run the bases in legal order." Most umpires believe the runner must be tagged if he is forced to return to touch a missed base.

In advancing, a runner shall touch first, second, third and home base in order. If forced to return, he shall retouch all bases in reverse order, unless the ball is dead under any provision of Rule 5.09.

It is clear when a runner is forced to advance that a tag of the base is allowed.
It is not so clear when he is forced to return that the base can be tagged for the out.
Ex. Two runners on 3rd base. One is forced back to second. Tag of base still okay?
Ex. Runner passes 2nd base without touching it, is it a missed base or is the runner forced to return to touch the base before he can continue his advance to the next base?

(b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

Why does 7-10(b) exist?
To keep the baserunner from cutting across the diamond from 3rd to 1st. Period!
Does anyone remember the first time it was used in a MLB ballgame?
I bet our most famous historian does.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Ok, i see what you're saying.

I read another thread mentioned in the Laz Diaz thread which also confirmed that if the D does something 'unmistakable' that you should award the appeal and call him out.

Yeah, I think some people learn about that word 'unmistakable' in the rule and immediately put too much weight on it. Especially as you go up to HS varsity and beyond, these kids know the game pretty well. When everyone's shouting "he missed third! he missed third!" and the ball comes into F5 standing on the base, I regard that as pretty unmistakable.

Notice also that the rule does NOT require players to verbalize their appeal. An appeal can be unmistakable without anyone uttering a word. Context can make words necessary (for instance, if 2 runners passed a base, and we need to know which runner is appealed), but the rule does not.

OTOH, players and coaches think that they have to request time, give the ball to the pitcher, and have him throw to the base for a simple retouch appeal, but still...

[RogersUmp]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

Sorry Mr Rogers, that is not a correct statement. Runner must stay within a 6ft lane (3 ft either direction), directly toward the base from the point a tag attempt is made (IE: when F3 made the tag attempt).

Yes, he must. Maybe you did't see the play. When Mr. Suzuki tried to avoid the tag he got to he point where both of the shoes he was wearing were 6 feet away from first base, on the turf. If you look at the 1B cutout at the MetroDome you will see there is 6 feet of dirt on the foul side of the base and he was all the way off of it.

[johnnyg08]

But it's Ichiro's baseline, not "the" baseline correct?

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

But it's Ichiro's baseline, not "the" baseline correct?

Exactly.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

Yes, he must. Maybe you did't see the play. When Mr. Suzuki tried to avoid the tag he got to he point where both of the shoes he was wearing were 6 feet away from first base, on the turf. If you look at the 1B cutout at the MetroDome you will see there is 6 feet of dirt on the foul side of the base and he was all the way off of it.

So? Field layout means zero in this case.

The baseline is a direct path from the runner (Wherever he may be located) to the base at the time of the tag attempt. Without a play the runner has no obligation to run directly to a base.

Do you call the batter-runner out when he goes to the right of the runners lane to round 1B after a base hit? A perfect example is the skunk in the outfield play.

[RogersUmp]

He was avoiding a tag, not rounding a base to go to the next base. The turf and the dirt are points of reference. How far are you willing to allow a player to wander away from a baseline/base or let his running momentum carry him away from the baseline/base, when he is trying to avoid the tag? BR is clearly not thinking about going to B2 when F3 has the ball between B1 and BR and he is now at least 6 feet from the next base he must touch. Maybe I'm missing something. Sorry.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

He was avoiding a tag, not rounding a base to go to the next base. The turf and the dirt are points of reference. How far are you willing to allow a player to wander away from a baseline/base or let his running momentum carry him away from the baseline/base, when he is trying to avoid the tag? BR is clearly not thinking about going to B2 when F3 has the ball between B1 and BR and he is now at least 6 feet from the next base he must touch. Maybe I'm missing something. Sorry.

Try it this way. Suppose he gets lost on his way to first and runs to the pitching rubber. Now he turns and runs toward first. On his way there, he steps 2 1/2' to the left of the 1st baseman to avoid a tag. He's way out of the line between Home and 1st but still not out for leaving HIS basepath. (If he'd gone 3 1/2' he'd be out).
________
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[Ump Rube]

What I think Rogers is trying to get at is that when the tag attempt is made as the umpire you have to define the baseline in your mind. For arguments sake lets say the you determine in any given play that the baseline is the 1BL at the Dome. Lets also say that the edge of the dirt near 1B is 6ft across perpendicular to the 1BL and centered. When you have a tag attempt visually you would no then that if the runner were to move beyond the edges of that dirt he is outside of his baseline.

At least that is what I see Rogers trying to say, I could be wrong.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by Ump Rube

What I think Rogers is trying to get at is that when the tag attempt is made as the umpire you have to define the baseline in your mind. For arguments sake lets say the you determine in any given play that the baseline is the 1BL at the Dome. Lets also say that the edge of the dirt near 1B is 6ft across perpendicular to the 1BL and centered. When you have a tag attempt visually you would no then that if the runner were to move beyond the edges of that dirt he is outside of his baseline.

At least that is what I see Rogers trying to say, I could be wrong.

I see what he's getting at as well, but where the runner is running does not matter until the tag attempt. Like you said, you make a judgement on where the baseline is at the time of the tag attempt:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

But it's Ichiro's baseline, not "the" baseline correct?

Like Johnny said, the baseline is the straight line between Ichiro and 1B. If his baseline matches the foul line, you could use the edge of the dirt as a reference--if the dirt is the correct width. Otherwise, forget running lanes, foul lines, cutouts, etc. How does anyone know how wide the dirt is from one field to the next anyway?

[johnnyg08]

I think on this type of play...the last thing you want is to get into a measuring contest w/ the offense or defense. The spirit of the rule must come into play on a sitch like this.