out or safe cant find in book

[JJ]

[QUOTE=Blue37;598551]He literally prissed (skipping with his hands at shoulder level and limp wrists) to the base, bent at the waist, and touched the bag with the ball. I called the runner safe. I would love to say they got the message and the game ended with no further incidents, but I cannot remember how it went after that. I do know there were no ejections.
QUOTE]

Let's see...."there were no ejections"...that kid that danced to first base should have been an immediate ejection. And...."I called the runner safe"...so YOU decided to change the rules of safe-out to "send a message". Shame, shame.....
Dump the dufus and if folks don't get the "message", TCB as needed. But don't compromise your integrity (and mine and every other umpire) by changing rules to "send messages".

JJ

[bossman72]

2.00 TAG
2.00 PERSON (body)

[johnnyg08]

think about where the ball is on a routine play to 1B...F3 catches it with his glove and his foot is on 1B...he does not catch the ball with his shoe. ball in hand, touches base with glove (with hand in glove) and that action beats the runner to the base...out.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by bossman72

2.00 TAG
2.00 PERSON (body)

So, tagging the base with the ball is an out. The ball is referred to as equipment in the OBR and he tagged the base with the ball. Now, Blue37, you have changed the rules to fit a situation. Please, don't do that anymore. Call the out and send F3 home for unsportsmanlike conduct if you want. But, call the out if it is made.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by JJ

so YOU decided to change the rules of safe-out to "send a message". Shame, shame.....

Before you scold him, you consider that strictly speaking he's right: a fielder touching the base with the ball alone does NOT constitute a tag.

Originally Posted by Rule 2.00

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the
ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his
hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or
glove.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Before you scold him, you consider that strictly speaking he's right: a fielder touching the base with the ball alone does NOT constitute a tag.

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.

The PERSON of a player or an umpire is any part of his body, his clothing or his equipment.

1.17 Playing equipment including but not limited to the bases, pitcher’s plate, baseball, bats, uniforms, catcher’s mitts, first baseman’s gloves, infielders and outfielders gloves and protective helmets, as detailed in the provisions of this rule, shall not contain any undue commercialization of the product. Designations by the manufacturer on any such equipment must be in good taste as to the size and content of the manufacturer’s logo or the brand name of the item. The provisions of this Section 1.17 shall apply to professional leagues only.

As long as he is doing it with the obvious intent to secure an out and it is not accidental, it is an out. Even if the only thing touching the base is the baseball. The glove is not his body; it is considered to be equipment. So, now, he cannot touch the base with his glove? Yes he can and so he can touch the base with only the baseball, and it is still an out.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

As long as he is doing it with the obvious intent to secure an out and it is not accidental, it is an out. Even if the only thing touching the base is the baseball. The glove is not his body; it is considered to be equipment. So, now, he cannot touch the base with his glove? Yes he can and so he can touch the base with only the baseball, and it is still an out.

I guess it depends on how we read 2.00 PERSON, which refers to "his equipment" as being part of his body. The glove is clearly "his equipment," but the ball is less clearly his.

In practice, I'd call this out too. I was surprised to see the rule, though.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

As long as he is doing it with the obvious intent to secure an out and it is not accidental, it is an out. Even if the only thing touching the base is the baseball. The glove is not his body; it is considered to be equipment. So, now, he cannot touch the base with his glove? Yes he can and so he can touch the base with only the baseball, and it is still an out.

I would like to revise this. I got 2 different issues mixed up when replying. To get an out on a force play does not have to be intentional. Still, the only thing touching a base can be the ball and as long as it is in the player's possession, I consider that to be his equipment until he lets go of it.

I just couldn't let this remain posted without a correction.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by JJ

Let's see...."there were no ejections"...that kid that danced to first base should have been an immediate ejection. And...."I called the runner safe"...so YOU decided to change the rules of safe-out to "send a message". Shame, shame.....
Dump the dufus and if folks don't get the "message", TCB as needed. But don't compromise your integrity (and mine and every other umpire) by changing rules to "send messages".

I know that you're trying to rip Blue37, not me, but I have a question: you're ripping him for "changing the rules," but I'd suggest your solution is basically the same thing.

I might need to go back and re-read my rulebooks, but can you tell me where exactly in the rulebook you'd find the "Dump the Dufus for showing up his opponent" rule? And not only the rule, but the rule code as well?

If, in fact, there really isn't such a thing - aside from a 9.01(c) type clause - then how is your proposal any less of an integrity compromise?

I'm asking this as a serious question, not a veiled attempt to rip with sarcasm.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

I know that you're trying to rip Blue37, not me, but I have a question: you're ripping him for "changing the rules," but I'd suggest your solution is basically the same thing.

I might need to go back and re-read my rulebooks, but can you tell me where exactly in the rulebook you'd find the "Dump the Dufus for showing up his opponent" rule? And not only the rule, but the rule code as well?

If, in fact, there really isn't such a thing - aside from a 9.01(c) type clause - then how is your proposal any less of an integrity compromise?

I'm asking this as a serious question, not a veiled attempt to rip with sarcasm.

Sorry, but the OP doesn't say what rules code they're playing under. I assumed that since it was an "18-under travel ball" team they were playing FED rules. Unsportsmanlike conduct in FED is punishable by ejection (3.3.1.g.2). If they were playing OBR, then rule 9.01d applies.
Hope this helps.

JJ

[umpjong]

Ejection for unsportsmanlike conduct is valid in all codes...... Travesty of the game also comes to mind for twinkle toes............

[DG]

"When tagging a base, a player may use any part of his body (e.g. foot, hand, shoulder) as long as he has secure possession of the ball in his hand or glove at the time he touches the base".

If he has the ball in his bare hand and touches the base with his glove hand, this seems to me to be a valid tag. If he has ball in hand the other hand has glove on it normally. I don't think we can expect him to throw off his glove so he can touch the base with his bare hand to record a valid out. He does not touch the bag with his foot either, because foot is inside shoe. Foot-shoe, hand-glove, same thing.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by DG

"When tagging a base, a player may use any part of his body (e.g. foot, hand, shoulder) as long as he has secure possession of the ball in his hand or glove at the time he touches the base".

If he has the ball in his bare hand and touches the base with his glove hand, this seems to me to be a valid tag. If he has ball in hand the other hand has glove on it normally. I don't think we can expect him to throw off his glove so he can touch the base with his bare hand to record a valid out. He does not touch the bag with his foot either, because foot is inside shoe. Foot-shoe, hand-glove, same thing.

\

correct...but I think that the posters are saying he can't throw his glove at the base...or something weird like that...for example, in FED, if a ball lodges in his glove, the pitcher can't take off his glove and throw glove w/ lodged ball to F3...in OBR he can. (not to hijack) but I don't think anybody is saying that he has to remove his hand from glove to touch 1B w/ hand versus hand-in-glove.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by JJ

Unsportsmanlike conduct in FED is punishable by ejection (3.3.1.g.2). If they were playing OBR, then rule 9.01d applies.
Hope this helps.

That's fair enough, but the rules also say that the umpire's judgement is final (other than appeal plays and check swings), and arguing balls and strikes is insta-EJ. And yet the practical application is not to do that - leaving one's place to argue balls and strikes is dumpable, but virtually everyone out there will at least throw a verbal caution or 'the stop sign' first. Also, HCs don't come out to make sure we've applied a rule correctly - they're out to try and argue that we got a call wrong.

So what I'm saying here is that an unsportsmanlike EJ might have a high bar, too. And I'm not even going to use "making a travesty of the game" as a rationale, as mentioned by someone else, unless it's for the specific rule in the book that uses the phrase.

[gordon30307]

[QUOTE=JJ;598621]

Originally Posted by Blue37

He literally prissed (skipping with his hands at shoulder level and limp wrists) to the base, bent at the waist, and touched the bag with the ball. I called the runner safe. I would love to say they got the message and the game ended with no further incidents, but I cannot remember how it went after that. I do know there were no ejections.
QUOTE]

Let's see...."there were no ejections"...that kid that danced to first base should have been an immediate ejection. And...."I called the runner safe"...so YOU decided to change the rules of safe-out to "send a message". Shame, shame.....
Dump the dufus and if folks don't get the "message", TCB as needed. But don't compromise your integrity (and mine and every other umpire) by changing rules to "send messages".

JJ

He who is without sin let him cast the first stone. Don't know what levels you work. But do you mean to tell me that your strike zone would be the same for 9 year olds and 18 year olds?