Batter kicks d3k

[mroyal]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

Thats what I thought. How about if the runner kicked it out of play inadvertantely??

How far would a player have to kick it to be out of play? That would seem to be a possibly hard kick to get it to a dead ball area. That would be even more of a case for intentionality.

[bisonpitcher]

Originally Posted by mroyal

How far would a player have to kick it to be out of play? That would seem to be a possibly hard kick to get it to a dead ball area. That would be even more of a case for intentionality.

Let's assume that it is a short foul ground and that it is obvious that the BR kicked the ball unintentionally out of play as he was leaving the box, if no INT then where would you place the runner?? 1 base since it was not batted as if the pitcher threw it out of play? Or since it touched the catcher would it fall under 1st throw by an infielder and move all runners 2 bases from TOP??

[mroyal]

Originally Posted by bisonpitcher

Let's assume that it is a short foul ground and that it is obvious that the BR kicked the ball unintentionally out of play as he was leaving the box, if no INT then where would you place the runner?? 1 base since it was not batted as if the pitcher threw it out of play? Or since it touched the catcher would it fall under 1st throw by an infielder and move all runners 2 bases from TOP??

Why is the BR leaving the box? Ball 4? When a batter exits the box for other than advancing to 1st or an out, I normally see them step out on the same side they occupy the box on - not across home plate.

In your post, the BR put the extra force on the ball to make it go out of play. I don't have a base award for this. Where is this DB area in relation to home plate or the dugout? It couldn't be that close, could it? I can't visualize any DB area (other than the opening of a dugout) so close that an accidental or "unintentional" kick could get the ball there.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mroyal

If the kick is preventing the catcher from making a play, then yes, I have an intentional kick.

A kick is not intentional just because the result is inconvenient for the defense.

[mroyal]

Originally Posted by mbyron

A kick is not intentional just because the result is inconvenient for the defense.

I will make the judgment and argue with the OC based on the batter preventing the catcher from making a play.

You can argue with the DC and tell him that you've got nothing but an inconvenience.

I like my chances better...

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mroyal

(sorry - i re-edited to get the notations in there instead for the long-winded verbage)

7.3.2 - contact with the ball while outside the batters box or with home plate...
2.21.1a - interferese with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play...

I assume you mean 7-3-2 and 2-21-1a (dashes for rules; dots for cases).

7-3-2 says "HIT the ball FAIR or FOUL ..." It's talking about hitting a pitch. Clearly not relevant to contacting an uncaught third strike (which is what the OP was about).

2-21-1a is more on point in that the play is interference. Some interference must be intentional to result in an out.

Notice, for example that 8-4-1a says "he INTENTIONALLY interferes with the catcher's attempt to field the ball after a third strike." Further 8.4.1I is nearly the same as the OP and says, "If, in the judgment of the umpire, B1 did not intentionally interfere, then the ball remains alive and the play stands."

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by mroyal

I will make the judgment and argue with the OC based on the batter preventing the catcher from making a play.

You can argue with the DC and tell him that you've got nothing but an inconvenience.

I like my chances better...

One thing you are forgetting here - it is 2's job to catch the ball. This is a d3k scenario or rather, let's call it what the book calls it - third strike not caught meaning the defense did not do their job.

Now the offense is trying to do his job by running to 1st base but he contacts the ball that is there because the defensive player didn't do his job. By your own definition, you are awarding the side that failed to do their job.

I think that you should listen to the more learned people that are politely responding to you in that: "Sometimes you have to umpire!"

[JJ]

This happened in a D3 Regional game in Illinois a few years ago - dropped third strike, batter took off, UNintentionally kicked the ball into the (nearby) dugout. LOTS of discussion by the crew on this one. Final judgement was one base for everyone from the time of the pitch - same as a wild pitch going into the dugout.
That was followed by lots of discussion for a year or so by all the umpires anytime they got together.

JJ

[johnnyg08]

if you've ever caught you can't be that black and white about who did their job or not...sometimes batters swing at pitches that will not be caught...the batter swung at a terrible pitch...one could argue that that batter didn't do his...you can't say the defense didn't do it's job just because F2 failed to glove the ball

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

if you've ever caught you can't be that black and white about who did their job or not...sometimes batters swing at pitches that will not be caught...the batter swung at a terrible pitch...one could argue that that batter didn't do his...you can't say the defense didn't do it's job just because F2 failed to glove the ball

Sometimes gloving the ball is difficult. It's still F2's job. Why do you think he's called the "catcher"?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Why do you think he's called the "catcher"?

I have asked this exact question of many a catcher who have let too many balls touch my person during the course of games. In no uncertain terms I let them know what Job-1 is: Keep the ball off the umpire.

[JR12]

PLAY: 1B unoccupied or 2 out. Strike 3 not caught. BR unintentionally kicks, touches or otherwise deflects the pitched ball that was not caught by the catcher. Catcher is unable to make a play.

RULING: If this occurs in the vicinity of home plate, the ball is alive and in play. However, if this occurs up the first base line (where the BR has had time to avoid the ball) interference should be called, the BR declared out, and runners return to base occupied at the TOP.

6.11 MLBUM