See a Balk?

[Robert E. Harrison]

Fed rules: Runners on 1st and 3rd. F1 in set position. As F1 is coming up towards his set he jumps back with his pivot foot and just before his pivot foot hits the ground behind the rubber, the ball pops out similar to a second basemen loosing the transfer on a double play.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

Fed rules: Runners on 1st and 3rd. F1 in set position. As F1 is coming up towards his set he jumps back with his pivot foot and just before his pivot foot hits the ground behind the rubber, the ball pops out similar to a second basemen loosing the transfer on a double play.

I'm not quite sure how F1 "jumps back with his pivot foot" but I think I have a balk. He's still engaged until he's disengaged -- and that doesn't happen until the pivot foot reaches the ground.

That said, if I couldn't tell which happened first (dropping the ball or the pivot foot hitting the ground), I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the pitcher.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

Fed rules: Runners on 1st and 3rd. F1 in set position. As F1 is coming up towards his set he jumps back with his pivot foot and just before his pivot foot hits the ground behind the rubber, the ball pops out similar to a second basemen loosing the transfer on a double play.

I have him stepping off. Close enough for government work.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

Fed rules: Runners on 1st and 3rd. F1 in set position. As F1 is coming up towards his set he jumps back with his pivot foot and just before his pivot foot hits the ground behind the rubber, the ball pops out similar to a second basemen loosing the transfer on a double play.

I was actually at that game and I definitely saw his foot touch the ground
before the ball came out. I also have nothing.

[Robert E. Harrison]

On a jump turn the pivot foot does not normally land behind the rubber. The rule states that the pitcher cannot drop the ball will in contact with the rubber. Bob is equating contact/noncontact with engage/disengage. Am I looking at this correctly?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

On a jump turn the pivot foot does not normally land behind the rubber. The rule states that the pitcher cannot drop the ball will in contact with the rubber. Bob is equating contact/noncontact with engage/disengage. Am I looking at this correctly?

You're thinking of the rule backwards. The intent of the balk rule is to restrict the deception that the pitcher may use. From the set position with runners on base, he may legally do 1 of 3 things once engaged:

1. Pitch to the batter
2. Step and throw (or feint) to a base
3. Step off

That's it. By interpretation, once engaged F1 remains engaged until he has legally done one of these 3 things.

That said, I agree with Bob: balk if the pivot foot is obviously in the air when the ball hits the ground, benefit of the doubt to F1. A botched "jump-spin" is a balk.

[dash_riprock]

A jump turn or jab step is also not a legal disengage, even if the pivot foot winds up off the rubber.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

On a jump turn the pivot foot does not normally land behind the rubber.

Was this a jump turn (as you now say) or a disengagement (as I read the OP)?

If it's a jump turn to first, then it's a balk if F1 doesn't complete the throw -- which was obvioulsy the case -- no matter then the ball is dropped.

[Robert E. Harrison]

I never said my OP was a jump turn. I said it was a jump back. Where does the pivot foot normally land on a jump turn? Usually in front or sometimes on the rubber. In this case, the pivot foot landed behind the rubber (so I considered this to be a step back), before the ball hit the ground. If it had been a jump turn I would not have posted the OP. Balk, no problem.
I just wanted to make sure the foot had to be on the ground before the ball hit the ground instead of the ball coming out.
Thanks for your help.

[johnnyg08]

if it's a step back, you don't need anything else. the pitcher is now an infielder, you have nothing

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

I never said my OP was a jump turn. I said it was a jump back.

So both feet left the ground?

Then I'm going to change my answer -- it's a balk. A legal disengagement is a STEP back.

[_Bruno_]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm not quite sure how F1 "jumps back with his pivot foot" but I think I have a balk. He's still engaged until he's disengaged -- and that doesn't happen until the pivot foot reaches the ground.

is this the same for OBR ?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

is this the same for OBR ?

Yes.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Robert E. Harrison

I never said my OP was a jump turn. I said it was a jump back. Where does the pivot foot normally land on a jump turn? Usually in front or sometimes on the rubber. In this case, the pivot foot landed behind the rubber (so I considered this to be a step back), before the ball hit the ground. If it had been a jump turn I would not have posted the OP. Balk, no problem.
I just wanted to make sure the foot had to be on the ground before the ball hit the ground instead of the ball coming out.
Thanks for your help.

I agree with Bob on this one, he didn't step back first; that's a balk.

Thanks
DAvid

[_Bruno_]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Yes.

thanks. is there any reference to that in a manual (evans, roder etc.) ?