Asking for Help - Page 2

SanDiegoSteve · #16 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 02:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence

I assume "C" is on the 3rd base side of the mound. That's where he was so I assume then that there was a R2 as well.

Yes, you were there...don't you know for a fact there was R2? And with R2, why were they holding the runner at first? Was this some sort of sneak behind the runner play? Strange to have a pickoff at first with R2. Are you sure it wasn't 1st and 3rd?

mbyron · #17 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 05:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODJ

What if F3 is blocking the part of the base R1 wanted to touch for his return to the base?

The "access" that the fielder must grant need NOT be what the runner "wants." Any "access" will do.

The rule imposes a burden on the defense, but it's not intended to be an unreasonable burden. How should the fielder know what the runner "wants?"

bob jenkins · #18 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 07:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence

I realize the FU saw what he saw. However, if the coach disagrees and approaches it the right way would it be unusual for the field ump to ask the HP ump for help?

Yes, it would be unusual to get help on this play.

ozzy6900 · #19 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 07:35am

Wait a minute! If we have R1 & R2, I am in "C". If your pitcher does a pickoff to 1st, you are going to get what I can give you from the "C" position - I am not going for help!

Why? "If your team is dumb enough to throw behind the lead runner, you loose! Now my partner is going to have to keep his eye on the lead runner which means he will not be watching the pickoff with me so I am not even going to bother going to him, coach!"

Spence · #20 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 09:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Wait a minute! If we have R1 & R2, I am in "C". If your pitcher does a pickoff to 1st, you are going to get what I can give you from the "C" position - I am not going for help!

Why? "If your team is dumb enough to throw behind the lead runner, you loose! Now my partner is going to have to keep his eye on the lead runner which means he will not be watching the pickoff with me so I am not even going to bother going to him, coach!"

Thanks, although I don't understand why you would consider it dumb to throw to first to try to pick off a runner.

Spence · #21 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 09:59am

So now that it seems unanimous that the umpire is not going to ask for help in this situation let me ask this.

Is there ever a time where you would ask your partner for help other than on a checked swing?

LDUB · #22 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 10:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Why? "If your team is dumb enough to throw behind the lead runner, you loose! Now my partner is going to have to keep his eye on the lead runner which means he will not be watching the pickoff with me so I am not even going to bother going to him, coach!"

Why are you thinking so much? It is a pickoff; do you footwork and make the call.

mbyron · #23 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 10:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence

So now that it seems unanimous that the umpire is not going to ask for help in this situation let me ask this.

Is there ever a time where you would ask your partner for help other than on a checked swing?

You need to get the PBUC red book. There are many, many instances where you can get help, too many to list in an internet post.

For example, no runners, ground ball to the infield, routine play at 1B: PU comes up the line to watch for a swipe tag, interference, and an overthrow. BU can go for help on all 3. (Pulled foot is not proper, but some will go for help on this too.)

mbyron · #24 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 10:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence

Thanks, although I don't understand why you would consider it dumb to throw to first to try to pick off a runner.

R1 and R2? Why are they trying to pick off R1? Where's he gonna go?

Spence · #25 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 10:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron

R1 and R2? Why are they trying to pick off R1? Where's he gonna go?

Why not pick him off and get an out?

mbyron · #26 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 10:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence

Why not pick him off and get an out?

Do you understand that holding R1 on 1B is costly for the defense?

bob jenkins · #27 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 10:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron

Do you understand that holding R1 on 1B is costly for the defense?

It could have been a "back door" pick-off play, or similar.

Ump153 · #28 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 10:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron

Any "access" will do.

Not according to the online FED clinic I saw. It specifically stated that the runner must have access to a portion of the side of the base facing him. A fielder who entirely blocks the leading edge and insists that runner merely had to reach around him to find another portion of the bag is not provding "access."

Durham · #29 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 10:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spence

2 man crew in a game I watched tonight.

R1

RHP picks off R1 but the base umpire calls him safe because he can't see that the runner's hand is not on the base. F3 dropped straight down with the knee and prevented the runner from touching the base.

I could see it because I was looking straight down the first base line so I assume the HP umpire could as well.

I completely understand how the field up didn't see it.

However, what would prevent that umpire from asking the home plate ump if the runner touched the base?

I'll offer this answer and honestly I am surprised that noone has yet. As a PU I see less than 1% of plays at first on a pick-off, and when I do see them I see them very late. The reason is as a PU I am watching the pitcher for balk and if I turn to see the pick-off I will miss a balk. Umpire school and many clinics teach the PU to not turn to see the play, but watch the pitcher for balk, and if asked I would probably tell a coach, "I would ask my partner for help if I could, but I know he wasn't watching the play he was looking for a balk." After all, they are the ones that are always trying to teach us mechanic; you know, like where we should be and who should make what call.

johnnyg08 · #30 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 14, 2009, 11:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ump153

Not according to the online FED clinic I saw. It specifically stated that the runner must have access to a portion of the side of the base facing him. A fielder who entirely blocks the leading edge and insists that runner merely had to reach around him to find another portion of the bag is not provding "access."

I'm curious as to where you got your information. The interpretation says some access..it doesn't specify what part of the base, just access. I would ask your FED instructor to reexplain that...I can't imagine that FED would specify which part of the base they'd have to allow access...obviously they can't say that we're allowing access to the back side of the base or the top or bottom of the base...but I think you know what I'm getting at.