The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 06, 2009, 02:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoBits View Post
I took my partner to the side, straightened him out, and had him change the call.
Whoa!

Did he ask for your help? The manager properly protest the ruling?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 06, 2009, 03:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylejt View Post
Whoa!

Did he ask for your help? The manager properly protest the ruling?
As much as it killed me, last week, I let a horses--- call by a partner stand, because he refused to ask me for help. It was the most blatant kick I have ever seen, and it was hard to walk away when he refused to ask me for help. I have never just straightened him out and changed a call without being asked.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 06, 2009, 03:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty View Post
As much as it killed me, last week, I let a horses--- call by a partner stand, because he refused to ask me for help. It was the most blatant kick I have ever seen, and it was hard to walk away when he refused to ask me for help. I have never just straightened him out and changed a call without being asked.
You wouldn't approach him for an obvious, critical misapplication of the rules? I guess I would if I felt that was what happened Maybe I'm in the minority

-Josh
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 06, 2009, 03:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Upper Midwest
Posts: 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
You wouldn't approach him for an obvious, critical misapplication of the rules? I guess I would if I felt that was what happened Maybe I'm in the minority

-Josh
I hope you're in the minority.

There are acceptable, established means by which a misapplication of a rule can be rectified. Throwing a partner under the bus is not one of them.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 06, 2009, 05:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
I hope you're in the minority.

There are acceptable, established means by which a misapplication of a rule can be rectified. Throwing a partner under the bus is not one of them.
For instance, a few weeks ago...R2 stealing on the pitch with two outs, B3 swings at the pitch and misses. F2 attempts to throw out R3 and is interfered with by B2. PU calls runner out on the interference. I approach PU and discuss the situation with him. He corrected the call, B2 is out for interference. Are you saying I shouldn't correct that error? We should start the next inning off with B2 at bat? There is a difference between throwing the partner under the bus (ie "Hey Randy you're wrong!" from 30 feet away or telling the coach he screwed that call up) and getting the call right because of a rules interpretation/knowledge error.

-Josh
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 06, 2009, 05:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Upper Midwest
Posts: 928
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG View Post
I have INT also, in both cases, but let's discuss the bigger question that has been raised here.

Let's say you are BU, and with R1 stealing the batter interferes with catcher's throw. PU properly calls INT, then calls R1 out and leaves the batter at the plate. No one argues, clearly the defense is better off so if the defensive coach knows the rule he is not saying. Offensive coach clearly does not know the rule and PU does not either, but you the BU do.

No judgment call involved here, clearly rule mis-application. And some will stick that info in their pocket and post game this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
For instance, a few weeks ago...R2 stealing on the pitch with two outs, B3 swings at the pitch and misses. F2 attempts to throw out R3 and is interfered with by B2. PU calls runner out on the interference. I approach PU and discuss the situation with him. He corrected the call, B2 is out for interference. Are you saying I shouldn't correct that error? We should start the next inning off with B2 at bat? There is a difference between throwing the partner under the bus (ie "Hey Randy you're wrong!" from 30 feet away or telling the coach he screwed that call up) and getting the call right because of a rules interpretation/knowledge error.

-Josh
Both of these have the same key difference with the OP--this is a matter of enforcement, not of the application of the rule as to the circumstances of the play. In both of these cases, the correct call is made; it is the penalty that is incorrect. Enforcement of penalties is concurrent jurisdiction--look at the more common example of balks and obstruction. Often, the calling umpire is not the only one that will have enforcement duties--if BU calls obstruction, PU will often have a better ability to determine the base to award in the case of that runner attempting to advance multiple bases. Likewise, if PU calls a balk, it is often BU that calls "Time" when appropriate and awards bases.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 06, 2009, 07:18pm
DG DG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Both of these have the same key difference with the OP--this is a matter of enforcement, not of the application of the rule as to the circumstances of the play. In both of these cases, the correct call is made; it is the penalty that is incorrect. Enforcement of penalties is concurrent jurisdiction--look at the more common example of balks and obstruction. Often, the calling umpire is not the only one that will have enforcement duties--if BU calls obstruction, PU will often have a better ability to determine the base to award in the case of that runner attempting to advance multiple bases. Likewise, if PU calls a balk, it is often BU that calls "Time" when appropriate and awards bases.
You said "There are acceptable, established means by which a misapplication of a rule can be rectified. Throwing a partner under the bus is not one of them." I certainly felt like you were in the "don't mention it camp" by this statement.

Another example. First batter of a middle inning grounds out. Offensive coach comes out with scorebook in hand, defensive coaches joins in. No argument, just gentlemanly discussion with PU. They separate to their respective dugouts and the next batter comes to the plate and PU shows and says "2 outs". Now if you were BU would you wonder how we could have one batter and 2 outs and call time to ask the PU, or would you post-game this so it would not appear to be throwing the PU under the bus?
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 11:53am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,230
Maybe I'm just taking an approach from basketball and misapplying it to baseball but if the following situation occurs, this is how I would handle it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara
Two outs, 1-1 count. R2 stealing on the pitch, B3 swings at the pitch and misses. F2 attempts to throw out R3 and is interfered with by B2. When it was obvious R2 was safe, PU declares R2 out on the interference by B3. I approach PU (aka Randy):

Me: "Randy, what did you see?"
PU: "F2 caught the pitch and attempted to throw out R2 at 3B. F2's hand hit the bat of B3, who had both feet out of the box"
Me: "Who did you call out on the interference?"
Randy: "R3"
Me: "Randy, I believe you've misapplied the interference rule. Shouldn't B3 be called out on the interference?"
Randy: "You are right"

Randy then declared B3 out on the play instead of R2.
I didn't undermine the PU by yelling across the field at the PU. I calmly approached him (would have stepped away from players if they were in the area) and asked him what he saw. If I something that he needed to know (for instance, on a tag play the ball was dropped but he was blocked from seeing it), I would approach him, ask him what he saw, and then tell him what I saw. The calling umpire will make the final decision on what to call. I'm just providing what I saw and then s/he makes the decision.

-Josh
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 12:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,081
Why are baseball umpires so stubborn and unwilling to change a call when it is obvious the call or rule applied is wrong? In football and basketball we get together and exchange information and try to get the call right...but in baseball we would rather be wrong than get some help and have to swallow a big peice of humble pie.
__________________
Every game is a big game
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 10:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
I hope you're in the minority.

There are acceptable, established means by which a misapplication of a rule can be rectified. Throwing a partner under the bus is not one of them.

It is our job to get the call right, and if I know my partner is kicking a call (not a judgement out/safe) I am going to help him out and make us both look good. What good does it do to let him kick it...helping your partner and getting it right to me is not throwing him under the bus, not helping when you know there is something wrong is like running yourself over with the bus.
__________________
Every game is a big game
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 08, 2009, 11:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Newburgh NY
Posts: 1,822
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodwillRef View Post
It is our job to get the call right, and if I know my partner is kicking a call (not a judgement out/safe) I am going to help him out and make us both look good. What good does it do to let him kick it...helping your partner and getting it right to me is not throwing him under the bus, not helping when you know there is something wrong is like running yourself over with the bus.
Disagree 100%

Whose to say who is right.

LET'S GET REAL

if your partner does not come to you THAT means that he thinks HIS Rule interp is CORRECT.

Now you step in WITHOUT being asked (even if you are right) and now the 2 umpires start arguing with one another on the field of play.

How does that look.

Remember the call STILL belongs to the umpire who made it.

In addition you are violating a rule.


OBR Rule 9.02

Quote:
(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.
There is a reason the aforementioned rule exists.

I am going to help him out and make us both look good

And you would be violating a rule that we are supposed to uphold.

Pete Booth
__________________
Peter M. Booth
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 06, 2009, 03:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylejt View Post
Whoa!
Did he ask for your help? The manager properly protest the ruling?

I have mixed feelings on this.
Since the OP said "rookie partner", I'm assuming its a lower level game. We can agree that when we make a mistake, we now "own" it, hopefully insuring it wont happen to us again.

So whats the best way to handle this? Either let the rookie eat it, and face the HC's anger to the point of possible ejection (dont recall anything about the coach requesting help on the call), knowing that we look good or bad as a crew.....or giving the rookie some unasked for info? (seems easy to do during the injury/deadball.

Other posts talk of "signals" from one to another when info is available. Would a rookie in this sich remember the signal EVEN IF gone over in pregame?

Now, if this was with an experienced partner, well....thats another matter.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The right call or the correct call? Nevadaref Basketball 9 Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:21am
ASA OBS call then no call leads to ejection DaveASA/FED Softball 28 Mon Jul 12, 2004 03:52pm
To call or not to call foul ball DaveASA/FED Softball 11 Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:47am
More Pacers/Pistons call/no call OverAndBack Basketball 36 Thu Jun 03, 2004 07:01pm
Does one call relate to the last call? Tee Basketball 28 Thu Feb 13, 2003 05:53pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:11pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1