What would you call?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by umpjong

This was a 14 yr old game......
And I guess our egos are more important than getting it right............

As I've said, there's proper ways of getting it right. This isn't a matter of ego. It's no different than parenting--you don't undermine your spouse's authority in front of your kids.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Matt

But how do you know if it's a rules issue? What if your partner knows the rule, but has adjudged the facts differently than you?

R2 and R1. I am PU, 3 balls on batter. F1 pitches and BU calls "that's a balk". I call the pitch a ball. BU then calls time and starts awarding bases. I was 99% sure he called a balk for not stopping. So I ask "are you calling a no stop balk?" He says yes so I say well the pitch was ball 4, batter and all other runners are advancing so we'll ignore the balk. He agreed and all was well. It was possible he was calling a balk for something before the pitch so I just had to ask. It wasn't a big deal at all.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by Matt

By sticking your nose in your partner's business, you undermine his authority. You've just told everyone watching or participating in that game that he is not as competent as you are, and that will hamper his ability to umpire, at a minimum, for that game, and depending on word of mouth, for a longer period.

I had this happen to me--as BU, I had a clear balk that my "partner" couldn't see. Because the defense didn't like it, he chose to question my call of his own volition. The next two balk calls (one was a non-call) were much more controversial as a direct result of that, resulting in an ejection that would never have happened if my "partner" had kept his mouth shut.

In the case you present, I would agree with you...questioning your balk call would be undermining your authority. I think there are ways to discuss certain plays in baseball where you are working as a team w/o undermining one's authority.

[kylejt]

There's a proper procedure for getting calls right. It involves the manager either requesting help, or protesting the ruling. Failure to follow the proper protocol will, eventually, lead to chaos.

I work with rookie umpires (and managers) all the time. And yes, I'll let them blow rule interpretations, even though I'm 60' away. No problem. I'll put the blame squarely on the manager, if he doesn't hold up his end of the job.

But I do mostly LL, and I'm there to help EVERYONE get better. If a manager wants to do it the right way, great. If not, I'll school him(if he's open to it) after the game, and everyone gets a little smarter for it.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by LDUB

R2 and R1. I am PU, 3 balls on batter. F1 pitches and BU calls "that's a balk". I call the pitch a ball. BU then calls time and starts awarding bases. I was 99% sure he called a balk for not stopping. So I ask "are you calling a no stop balk?" He says yes so I say well the pitch was ball 4, batter and all other runners are advancing so we'll ignore the balk. He agreed and all was well. It was possible he was calling a balk for something before the pitch so I just had to ask. It wasn't a big deal at all.

But you were asking for clarification, not interjecting what you saw, so that you could both properly enforce the rules.

[DG]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IMO -- if it's a rules issue, I step in (and want my partner(s) to come to me).

The NCAA book lists other situations where an umpire can step in, even on judgment calls.

Thank you. I have been trying to make this point unsuccessfully. You simplified greatly. This is the way it should be and it should not be considered throwing your partner under the bus. I'm through with this post because some are just not listening.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by DG

Thank you. I have been trying to make this point unsuccessfully. You simplified greatly. This is the way it should be and it should not be considered throwing your partner under the bus. I'm through with this post because some are just not listening.

A few years back, a famous, beloved local umpire was working the plate. I had worked many games with him over the years. One night, working a Pony game under the lights, I called a balk on a pitcher for throwing to F3 who was playing 15 feet off the base and was not even close to having a play on R1, who was only a few feet off the base. The pitcher thought F3 was holding the runner. My partner came out and made a big spectacle of overruling me. He said he'd never heard of such a rule. I stood my ground, and did not back off my call. He told me that I was responsible if there was a protest and I said "fine with me." I brought the play up at the next association meeting and was vindicated. He then grudgingly admitted that I had gotten the call right.

That was throwing me under the bus for making a correct call.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

My partner came out and made a big spectacle of overruling me.

That's the part that's "throwing you under the bus."

In both situations (the OP "interference" and your "balk"), PU should approach BU, say privately, "what do you have?" (or, more probably, "whatchya got?") and go from there to discuss the rules.

That way, if PU has the right rule, but BU has seem something to make the rule not apply, the original call can stand.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Rich it's not called "letting the rookie suffer" and NO it does not reflect on me.

There are many rulings in which EVERYONE sees something that they think is BLATENT EXCEPT the particpants involved as in the example that happened to me over this past weekend.

NO-ONE but me F2 and the BR KNEW that the ball TOUCHED the BR.

Rookies have to learn. Now if I am 100% CERTAIN of something I will do my best to get the rookies attention but NO I will not AUTOMATICALLY step in until he asks me to.

IMO, once the 'floodgates" open and it becomes acceptable for umpires to start over-ruling one another the games will become nightmares.

Pete Booth

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by kylejt

There's a proper procedure for getting calls right. It involves the manager either requesting help, or protesting the ruling. Failure to follow the proper protocol will, eventually, lead to chaos.

I work with rookie umpires (and managers) all the time. And yes, I'll let them blow rule interpretations, even though I'm 60' away. No problem. I'll put the blame squarely on the manager, if he doesn't hold up his end of the job.

But I do mostly LL, and I'm there to help EVERYONE get better. If a manager wants to do it the right way, great. If not, I'll school him(if he's open to it) after the game, and everyone gets a little smarter for it.

One of our jobs as umpires is acting as arbiters of the rules. If there is a misapplication of the rules, and I am certain about it, I will get together with my partner and enforce accordingly. He will still learn what he did wrong. By letting your partner "eat" his interpretation, it opens it up if it happens again in the same game, maybe to the other team. Maybe the other coach will know the rule and point it out. He points it out and you correct it. Now, the whole crew has lost credibility. Credibility can still be lost if you let the rule infraction go against one team and the other team knows it. If a rule is misapplied, and you know it, fix it immediately.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

If a rule is misapplied, and you know it, fix it immediately.

The discussion here is not wether the rule was mis-applied because, once again, you are not going to know it until you converse with your partner. If your partner asks for help and you explain to him that his interpretation was incorrect, then the proper way would be to let him handle the correction. The TEAM has then rectified an incorrect application of the rules and nobody has been thrown under the bus. Of course one coach will think the TEAM is screwing him and the other will be saying "good job." But, thats baseball.

Its when the officiating TEAM, works as a TEAM, that this can be handled smoothly. if your partner elects not to correct his call then there is not much more you can do but get back to playing the . move on.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Matt

I hope you're in the minority.

There are acceptable, established means by which a misapplication of a rule can be rectified. Throwing a partner under the bus is not one of them.

It is our job to get the call right, and if I know my partner is kicking a call (not a judgement out/safe) I am going to help him out and make us both look good. What good does it do to let him kick it...helping your partner and getting it right to me is not throwing him under the bus, not helping when you know there is something wrong is like running yourself over with the bus.

[PeteBooth]

I agree with jicecone 100%.

At THAT "moment" we do not KNOW what your partner saw or what rule interp is being questioned UNLESS your partner comes to you and then you can intervene.

As Jicecone said we need to act as a TEAM.

Allow the manager to do his job meaning "Lodge a protest" then we can get involved.

As mentioned ONCE we as umpires take it upon ourselves to ARBRITRARILY OVER-RULE one another or STEP IN WITHOUT being asked the floodagtes will open.


Pete Booth

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

One of our jobs as umpires is acting as arbiters of the rules. ....... If a rule is misapplied, and you know it, fix it immediately.

Again, there's a protocol on how these rule misapplications are handled. If you want to side step this, go ahead, but it's a slippery slope once you start doing this. There's a right way of "getting the call right", and that way should be followed by all concerned.

[PeteBooth]

Disagree 100%

Whose to say who is right.

LET'S GET REAL

if your partner does not come to you THAT means that he thinks HIS Rule interp is CORRECT.

Now you step in WITHOUT being asked (even if you are right) and now the 2 umpires start arguing with one another on the field of play.

How does that look.

Remember the call STILL belongs to the umpire who made it.

In addition you are violating a rule.


OBR Rule 9.02

(c) If a decision is appealed, the umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision. No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

There is a reason the aforementioned rule exists.

I am going to help him out and make us both look good

And you would be violating a rule that we are supposed to uphold.

Pete Booth