What would you call?

[DG]

Originally Posted by Matt

That's not a straight question. If I have shared or primary responsibility for a decision, then I would rectify it at that time. If not, it goes after the game. I'd be giving the "I have something for you" signal throughout the ensuing discussion, but no overt input.

I can see you excel at misdirection. Both umpires have responsibility for proper application of the rules.

You have "what's the situation" signals and now "I have something for you" signals, but will apparently NOT call time and have a discussion with your partner about a potential rules mis-application.

If I pooch a rule (not likely) you will not tell me during the game, unless I ask, which I will not because I don't know I pooched. And the coaches don't know so there is no justice and we, the team, did not do our jobs.

If I pooch a rule I would rather you throw me under the bus and I will learn from the experience, and I will be happy to throw you under too and maybe you will learn too, or not.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by DG

I can see you excel at misdirection. Both umpires have responsibility for proper application of the rules.

You have "what's the situation" signals and now "I have something for you" signals, but will apparently NOT call time and have a discussion with your partner about a potential rules mis-application.

If I pooch a rule (not likely) you will not tell me during the game, unless I ask, which I will not because I don't know I pooched. And the coaches don't know so there is no justice and we, the team, did not do our jobs.

If I pooch a rule I would rather you throw me under the bus and I will learn from the experience, and I will be happy to throw you under too and maybe you will learn too, or not.

This goes in the "whatever" pile.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Matt

This goes in the "whatever" pile.

You seem to aspire to be "whatever". Good luck.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by DG

You seem to aspire to be "whatever". Good luck.

I'm pretty sure I've done just fine and will continue to do so, personal attacks notwithstanding.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by DG

I can see you excel at misdirection. Both umpires have responsibility for proper application of the rules.

You have "what's the situation" signals and now "I have something for you" signals, but will apparently NOT call time and have a discussion with your partner about a potential rules mis-application.

If I pooch a rule (not likely) you will not tell me during the game, unless I ask, which I will not because I don't know I pooched. And the coaches don't know so there is no justice and we, the team, did not do our jobs.

If I pooch a rule I would rather you throw me under the bus and I will learn from the experience, and I will be happy to throw you under too and maybe you will learn too, or not.

Wow! You took the time to write all that down and then post it where other umpires would read it? And you're serious? Even about that last part?

Whatever.

[TwoBits]

A few answers from me, the OP:

This was a 14 & under USSSA "AA" game. Its not exactly the place you would put a rookie, but we've got a lot of new faces umpiring around the ball park. Some new guys are coming in to make a little extra money, some seasoned veterans not umpiring because they are working extra hours on the weekends in their regular jobs (gotta love this economy, don't you?)

I was plate umpire, my partner on bases. Defensive coach came to me first, and I directed him to my partner since it was his call. I was prepared to accept whatever judgment ruling he had unless he asked for help. However, when he loudly proclaimed that the runner has a right to the base path, I felt the need to step in in a private conversation with him while the coach attended to his injured player.

Had this been a veteran that I'm used to working with, then the situation would never have happened because the proper rule would have been applied. However, with a rookie umpire, an injured player, a rule misapplication, and an upset coach, I felt the need to offer my opinion to ward of a potentially volotile situation.

[bob jenkins]

IMO -- if it's a rules issue, I step in (and want my partner(s) to come to me).

The NCAA book lists other situations where an umpire can step in, even on judgment calls.

[johnnyg08]

I don't know...I think you are a crew out there...a team if you will. Safe/Out is a bit different from a rule application...if I see safe, and my partner saw out, (assuming the ball isn't on the ground and I didn't see it), then we live with those calls...sometimes we miss them, sometimes we get them right. If my partner misses a rule, that makes the crew look bad and it could make your assocation look bad. If your partner gets the count wrong, gets the outs wrong, misapplies a rule, I feel that it's my duty as a partner and my partner's duty to let me know as opposed to letting me look like a donkey on something that easily correctable. Work one-man if you don't want to work as a team and hang your partner out to dry.

[umpjong]

If the interference was as obvious as it sounds, and I clearly saw it, I would probably call it immediately after seeing that my partner was not going to make a call. There are times when a partner may miss something, and if its that obvious why wait for it to get to the crapper stage? Maybe your partner had a brain fart, whatever the case was. (in this instance he did not know the rule). In this case you either have interference or obstruction. If you see it call it...........
Had the partner made a call on it as it occurred you could then wait and offer your insight in a brief meeting.

The concept of getting the call right is not a new one...........

At the level of play cited (14 yr old) and a young umpire involved, I cant believe anyone would call fixing this a case of throwing a partner under a bus.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by umpjong

If the interference was as obvious as it sounds, and I clearly saw it,

What if your partner clearly saw something else? What makes you right and him wrong?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I don't know...I think you are a crew out there...a team if you will. Safe/Out is a bit different from a rule application...if I see safe, and my partner saw out, (assuming the ball isn't on the ground and I didn't see it), then we live with those calls...sometimes we miss them, sometimes we get them right. If my partner misses a rule, that makes the crew look bad and it could make your assocation look bad. If your partner gets the count wrong, gets the outs wrong, misapplies a rule, I feel that it's my duty as a partner and my partner's duty to let me know as opposed to letting me look like a donkey on something that easily correctable. Work one-man if you don't want to work as a team and hang your partner out to dry.

By sticking your nose in your partner's business, you undermine his authority. You've just told everyone watching or participating in that game that he is not as competent as you are, and that will hamper his ability to umpire, at a minimum, for that game, and depending on word of mouth, for a longer period.

I had this happen to me--as BU, I had a clear balk that my "partner" couldn't see. Because the defense didn't like it, he chose to question my call of his own volition. The next two balk calls (one was a non-call) were much more controversial as a direct result of that, resulting in an ejection that would never have happened if my "partner" had kept his mouth shut.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IMO -- if it's a rules issue, I step in (and want my partner(s) to come to me).

But how do you know if it's a rules issue? What if your partner knows the rule, but has adjudged the facts differently than you?

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by Matt

What if your partner clearly saw something else? What makes you right and him wrong?

I think I address this in my line 4.

Line 4 "Had the partner made a call on it as it occurred you could then wait and offer your insight in a brief meeting."

[Matt]

Originally Posted by umpjong

I think I address this in my line 4.

Line 4 "Had the partner made a call on it as it occurred you could then wait and offer your insight in a brief meeting."

And you're still telling everyone, "Hey, I don't think my partner knows what he's doing."

[umpjong]

Originally Posted by Matt

And you're still telling everyone, "Hey, I don't think my partner knows what he's doing."

This was a 14 yr old game......
And I guess our egos are more important than getting it right............

Note: Umpires that would make this big a blunder (base umpire) at a higher level of game probably wont get another game at that level anyway.......