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Old Sun Jun 23, 2002, 10:11am
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Situation: R2, two outs. Batter gets hit into outfield scoring R2. BR is thrown out at 2nd for the third out trying to stretch his hit into a double. R2 crossed home before R2 was thrown out -BUT- R2 missed the plate, takes a few steps toward the dugout, is informed by a teammate that he missed the plate (which he did), and he retouches. But the retouch occurs *after* BR is tagged out at 2nd.

Here are my questions:

Isn't it true that when R2 "passed" home he was considered to have scored at that time, even if he had missed it? Because, isn't it true that an umpire is not supposed to "recognize" a missed base unless there is an appeal?

When the third out was recorded at 2nd base - wasn't the inning officially concluded? Can live action still continue? Can R2's retouch count? Can't the defense appeal that he missed home even though he came back a retouched?

What's the ruling on plays like this?

As always, I'm interested in both the FED and OBR interpretation on such plays, if different.
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Old Sun Jun 23, 2002, 11:03am
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Ongoing Discussion

Well this play has made it to this board. The thread started on ETeamz and worked its way over to Umpire.org.

The current status of the threads: No one can find a definitive interp about the ability of the offense to retouch home plate after the third out has been recorded. What is missing from your situation would be subsequent appeal by the defense at home for the fourth out.

Certainly absent a proper appeal by the defense, the run scores regardless of the retouch. However, the umpire has a dilemma if F4 throws the ball to F2 after the third out. Then F2 appeals that R2 missed home plate. Does the umpire allow the retouch after the third out or not?

One camp says run scores since the ball is live after third out and the defense can appeal for fourth out. Therefore the offense can correct its mistakes. Others believe the third out ends the offense's ability to do anything.

We await a definitive interp.
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Old Sun Jun 23, 2002, 11:30am
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Re: Ongoing Discussion

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike M
Well this play has made it to this board. The thread started on ETeamz and worked its way over to Umpire.org.

The current status of the threads: No one can find a definitive interp about the ability of the offense to retouch home plate after the third out has been recorded. What is missing from your situation would be subsequent appeal by the defense at home for the fourth out.

Certainly absent a proper appeal by the defense, the run scores regardless of the retouch. However, the umpire has a dilemma if F4 throws the ball to F2 after the third out. Then F2 appeals that R2 missed home plate. Does the umpire allow the retouch after the third out or not?

One camp says run scores since the ball is live after third out and the defense can appeal for fourth out. Therefore the offense can correct its mistakes. Others believe the third out ends the offense's ability to do anything.

We await a definitive interp.
******

This is confusing me because of the following:

From Jaksa/Roder:

If a runner misses home in passing it, and returns to touch it, the time he is considered to have touched the plate is when he actually does touch it. If he only passes the plate (failing to touch it), the time he "touches or passes" the plate is the time he passes it.

Huh?

Jaksa/Roder follows up with the below example:

R2, two outs. The batter singles to center field. The throw to the plate is relayed to second base and R2 misses home plate just before the batter-runner is tagged out: R2 is a run unless he becomes out on appeal for missing home. R2 is not a run if he returns to touch home after the out.

With reference to 4.09(a) Evans says:

This rule is the best description in the rulebook explaining the "Time Play." Time plays are critically important since the sequence of events determine whether or not a run counts. When a runner crosses the plate at approximately the same time a third out (not a force out) is made on the bases, a time play has occurred. Note the use of the term "crosses the plate" as opposed to "touches the plate." On time play situations, a runner is assumed to have touched the plate legally until a proper appeal for a missed base is sustained. In that event, it may be necessary for the umpire to reverse his previous signal that the run scored.

Isn't it true that only APPEALS can be acknowledged for an advantageous 4th out?

Further - can runners legally correct baserunning errors (i.e. missed bases) after the third out has been recorded? It seems that Jaksa/Roder believes a runner who misses home can go back an touch it even though the third out has been made. That would mean that an attempt to get an advantageous 4th out on that runner would be denied because the runner corrected his error before the appeal.

*****

I apologize if this has been rehashed on other umpire boards. I do not frequent them all as many of you do and I was unaware that this was discussed ad naseum.

I'll accept the fact that it has been beaten into the ground. If there is no consensus, then I'll accept that an eagerly await something authoritive.

Thanks!


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Old Sun Jun 23, 2002, 08:52pm
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,i> Originally posted by David Emerling

Situation: R2, two outs. Batter gets hit into outfield scoring R2. BR is thrown out at 2nd for the third out trying to stretch his hit into a double. R2 crossed home before R2 was thrown out -BUT- R2 missed the plate, takes a few steps toward the dugout, is informed by a teammate that he missed the plate (which he did), and he retouches. But the retouch occurs *after* BR is tagged out at 2nd.

Here are my questions:

Isn't it true that when R2 "passed" home he was considered to have scored at that time, even if he had missed it? Because, isn't it true that an umpire is not supposed to "recognize" a missed base unless there is an appeal?

When the third out was recorded at 2nd base - wasn't the inning officially concluded? Can live action still continue? Can R2's retouch count? Can't the defense appeal that he missed home even though he came back a retouched?

What's the ruling on plays like this?

As always, I'm interested in both the FED and OBR interpretation on such plays, if different.


David IMO, the FED rule is pretty clear on this.

FED rule 2-20-2

A half-inning is the interval during which one team is on offense (batting) and the other is on defense (fielding). A half inning ends when there is a third out or when, in the last inning, the winning run is scored.

In either case, if there is a delayed out declared by the umpire for a baserunning infraction, a possible fourth out may be recognized (FED rule 9-1-1d,e)

Therefore, in FED, we can recognize an advanatageous 4th out (which we can also do in OBR). In FED, according to the above, the offense is Finished when there are 3 outs so a runner cannot correct their mistake. The umpires however, can recognize the advantageous "4th out"

In OBR, don't have any support yet, I think the same would be true. When we have 3 outs, the inning is over and runners cannot correct their mistakes.

IMO, this is a good play for Papa C to include in next years BRD.

Pete Booth


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Old Mon Jun 24, 2002, 02:24am
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeteBooth

In OBR, don't have any support yet, I think the same would be true. When we have 3 outs, the inning is over and runners cannot correct their mistakes.

IMO, this is a good play for Papa C to include in next years BRD.

Pete Booth
[/B]
************

It appears that an "advantageous 4th out" must be an appeal on a baserunning infraction.

Yet, Jaksa/Roder has the below example which recognizes a 4th out that is NOT an appeal:

Not an appeal: Bases loaded, two outs. The batter singles and R2 is thrown out at home for the third out. The batter has been injured and is unable to advance to first, prompting the defense to throw to first against him: this is an advantageous fourth out and supersedes the former third out, an no run can score.
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