Substitution Question

[mrm21711]

A is the DH and batting in the 5th spot in the lineup. B is pitching and A is batting for him as the DH. Player C is in left field batting in the 7th spot.

If player D comes in off the bench to pitch and player B goes to left field, can these be treated as intersecting substitutions (manager has the option of placing player D in either the 5th spot or the 7th spot and vica versa for player B)? I understand this terminates the DH and if the previous pitcher goes to play defense, the DH role is terminated and player A is removed from the game.

[UmpJM]

mrm21711,

No. If B stays in the game, the ONLY batting lineup spot he may occupy is the 5 spot. 3-1-4, 3rd to last sentence.

JM

[johnnyg08]

Assuming all players listed in this sitch are starters (except D)

The DH, is the DH for that spot in the lineup for the entire game (obviously you can sub for the DH). So...my understanding is that in your sitch, Player D enters the game for Player C. Player A is still hitting for Player B in the 5 slot. The previous pitcher can go play anywhere while still being hit for.

Am I correct? Admittedly, I'm not sure on this one, but I'm giving it a shot.

Just saw your post JM...was typing while you posted your answer.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mrm21711,

No. If B stays in the game, the ONLY batting lineup spot he may occupy is the 5 spot. 3-1-4, 3rd to last sentence.

JM

I agree with the NFHS rule but am inquiring about OBR.

The reason I posed the question is after reading my J/R I was confused because there doesnt seem to be an explanation of the situation.

This is what J/R writes:

Eliot DH 5th spot in order
Grant LF 7th spot in order
James Pitcher
King - on the bench

King is the reliever and James goes to left field: loss of DH role (and the DH, Eliot). King must bat in the DH spot; because Grant is replaced James enters the seventh slot. [Suppose Grant is replaced, James enters the seventh slot.]

That is my source of confusion. Can the coach make intersection substitutions of King and James in the 5th & 7th spots in the order or is King locked into the 5th spot, replacing the old DH? Roder clearly writes that King MUST bat in the 5th spot but offers no further discussion.

From the PBUC "blue" manual:

2.4 Designated Hitter

If a game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position, this move shall terminate the DH's role for the remainder of the game. The pitcher just removed MAY bat in the DH spot in the batting order; or, if more than one defensive change is made, the pitcher may bat in place of any one of the substituted players (manager shall designate to the umpire.)

This excerpt from the PBUC manual seems to contradict the example given by Roder. Please explain...????

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

...
The DH, is the DH for that spot in the lineup for the entire game (obviously you can sub for the DH). ... Player A is still hitting for Player B in the 5 slot. The previous pitcher can go play anywhere while still being hit for.

Am I correct? Admittedly, I'm not sure on this one, but I'm giving it a shot.

johnny,

I would concur with what you said, but I believe it's DIFFERENT than the question mrm was asking.

JM

[johnnyg08]

Straight OBR doesn't have reentry and the DH must hit for the pitcher in that spot for the entire game. My understanding is that only in NCAA where they have that P/DH rule where you can manipulate the batting order with substitutions if the pitcher is listed as the P/DH.

Just a piece of advice for next time...state the rule set if you're inquiring about a specific rule set.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

I agree with the NFHS rule but am inquiring about OBR.

...This excerpt from the PBUC manual seems to contradict the example given by Roder. Please explain...????

mrm21711,

Sorry, I just assumed you were asking about the FED rule. I haven't done much study of the OBR DH rule, but the PBUC quote, which is consistent with the MLBUM treatment of the question, suggests the "double switch" you posit is NOT legal because only ONE "defensive substitution" is being made. (Since the pitcher is already in the game on defense, his move to another defensive position is not a "substitution".)

That is, under OBR rules, a pitcher who is being "DH'd for" is NOT "locked" into any spot in the batting order. Therefore, should the pitcher be subbed for and remain in the game as a defensive player, if another sub is brought in at the same time, the DM is free to place the pitcher and the "new" sub in the two spots in the batting order previously occupied by the DH (now terminated) and the other defensive player leaving the game as he siees fit.

As I read it, the difference in the J/R cite you reference is that only ONE defensive sub is coming into the game (King), though TWO players are leaving the game (Eliot & Grant).

Not sure that's correct, but that's how I read it.

JM

[DG]

OBR: DH is locked into batting order. Pitcher for whom he is batting is not.

The game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position, this move shall terminate the DH role for remainder of the game. The pitcher just removed from the mound may bat in the DH spot; or, if more than one defensive change is made, the pitcher may bat in place of any one of the substituted players (manager shall designate the place in the batting order to the umpire).

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mrm21711,

Sorry, I just assumed you were asking about the FED rule. I haven't done much study of the OBR DH rule, but the PBUC quote, which is consistent with the MLBUM treatment of the question, suggests the "double switch" you posit is NOT legal because only ONE "defensive substitution" is being made. (Since the pitcher is already in the game on defense, his move to another defensive position is not a "substitution".)

That is, under OBR rules, a pitcher who is being "DH'd for" is NOT "locked" into any spot in the batting order. Therefore, should the pitcher be subbed for and remain in the game as a defensive player, if another sub is brought in at the same time, the DM is free to place the pitcher and the "new" sub in the two spots in the batting order previously occupied by the DH (now terminated) and the other defensive player leaving the game as he siees fit.

As I read it, the difference in the J/R cite you reference is that only ONE defensive sub is coming into the game (King), though TWO players are leaving the game (Eliot & Grant).

Not sure that's correct, but that's how I read it.

JM

That makes sense to me - I am confusing and considering the pitcher (James) as a substitute when in fact he is not substituting, he is simply entering the batting order as a result of him taking a defensive position after leaving the game as the pitcher.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Just a piece of advice for next time...state the rule set if you're inquiring about a specific rule set.

'Bout time someone asked a rule question.
No need to place any stipulations on his thread.

[johnnyg08]

I wasn't. But his question had different answers based on rule set. So the answer to his question could be correct w/o a rule set context. I thought I said it nicely.