The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 07, 2009, 03:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 652
Substitution Question

A is the DH and batting in the 5th spot in the lineup. B is pitching and A is batting for him as the DH. Player C is in left field batting in the 7th spot.

If player D comes in off the bench to pitch and player B goes to left field, can these be treated as intersecting substitutions (manager has the option of placing player D in either the 5th spot or the 7th spot and vica versa for player B)? I understand this terminates the DH and if the previous pitcher goes to play defense, the DH role is terminated and player A is removed from the game.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 07, 2009, 03:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,057
Send a message via Yahoo to UmpJM
Cool

mrm21711,

No. If B stays in the game, the ONLY batting lineup spot he may occupy is the 5 spot. 3-1-4, 3rd to last sentence.

JM
__________________
Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 07, 2009, 03:30pm
Stop staring at me swan.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,974
Assuming all players listed in this sitch are starters (except D)

The DH, is the DH for that spot in the lineup for the entire game (obviously you can sub for the DH). So...my understanding is that in your sitch, Player D enters the game for Player C. Player A is still hitting for Player B in the 5 slot. The previous pitcher can go play anywhere while still being hit for.

Am I correct? Admittedly, I'm not sure on this one, but I'm giving it a shot.

Just saw your post JM...was typing while you posted your answer.
__________________
It's like Deja Vu all over again
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 07, 2009, 03:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 652
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
mrm21711,

No. If B stays in the game, the ONLY batting lineup spot he may occupy is the 5 spot. 3-1-4, 3rd to last sentence.

JM
I agree with the NFHS rule but am inquiring about OBR.

The reason I posed the question is after reading my J/R I was confused because there doesnt seem to be an explanation of the situation.

This is what J/R writes:

Eliot DH 5th spot in order
Grant LF 7th spot in order
James Pitcher
King - on the bench

King is the reliever and James goes to left field: loss of DH role (and the DH, Eliot). King must bat in the DH spot; because Grant is replaced James enters the seventh slot. [Suppose Grant is replaced, James enters the seventh slot.]

That is my source of confusion. Can the coach make intersection substitutions of King and James in the 5th & 7th spots in the order or is King locked into the 5th spot, replacing the old DH? Roder clearly writes that King MUST bat in the 5th spot but offers no further discussion.

From the PBUC "blue" manual:

2.4 Designated Hitter

If a game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position, this move shall terminate the DH's role for the remainder of the game. The pitcher just removed MAY bat in the DH spot in the batting order; or, if more than one defensive change is made, the pitcher may bat in place of any one of the substituted players (manager shall designate to the umpire.)

This excerpt from the PBUC manual seems to contradict the example given by Roder. Please explain...????

Last edited by mrm21711; Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 04:06pm.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 07, 2009, 03:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,057
Send a message via Yahoo to UmpJM
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyg08 View Post
...
The DH, is the DH for that spot in the lineup for the entire game (obviously you can sub for the DH). ... Player A is still hitting for Player B in the 5 slot. The previous pitcher can go play anywhere while still being hit for.

Am I correct? Admittedly, I'm not sure on this one, but I'm giving it a shot.
johnny,

I would concur with what you said, but I believe it's DIFFERENT than the question mrm was asking.

JM
__________________
Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 07, 2009, 03:45pm
Stop staring at me swan.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,974
Straight OBR doesn't have reentry and the DH must hit for the pitcher in that spot for the entire game. My understanding is that only in NCAA where they have that P/DH rule where you can manipulate the batting order with substitutions if the pitcher is listed as the P/DH.

Just a piece of advice for next time...state the rule set if you're inquiring about a specific rule set.
__________________
It's like Deja Vu all over again
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 07, 2009, 04:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,057
Send a message via Yahoo to UmpJM
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrm21711 View Post
I agree with the NFHS rule but am inquiring about OBR.

...This excerpt from the PBUC manual seems to contradict the example given by Roder. Please explain...????
mrm21711,

Sorry, I just assumed you were asking about the FED rule. I haven't done much study of the OBR DH rule, but the PBUC quote, which is consistent with the MLBUM treatment of the question, suggests the "double switch" you posit is NOT legal because only ONE "defensive substitution" is being made. (Since the pitcher is already in the game on defense, his move to another defensive position is not a "substitution".)

That is, under OBR rules, a pitcher who is being "DH'd for" is NOT "locked" into any spot in the batting order. Therefore, should the pitcher be subbed for and remain in the game as a defensive player, if another sub is brought in at the same time, the DM is free to place the pitcher and the "new" sub in the two spots in the batting order previously occupied by the DH (now terminated) and the other defensive player leaving the game as he siees fit.

As I read it, the difference in the J/R cite you reference is that only ONE defensive sub is coming into the game (King), though TWO players are leaving the game (Eliot & Grant).

Not sure that's correct, but that's how I read it.

JM
__________________
Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.

Last edited by UmpJM; Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 05:01pm. Reason: Correct answer.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 07, 2009, 05:38pm
DG DG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,022
OBR: DH is locked into batting order. Pitcher for whom he is batting is not.

The game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position, this move shall terminate the DH role for remainder of the game. The pitcher just removed from the mound may bat in the DH spot; or, if more than one defensive change is made, the pitcher may bat in place of any one of the substituted players (manager shall designate the place in the batting order to the umpire).
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 07, 2009, 07:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 652
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
mrm21711,

Sorry, I just assumed you were asking about the FED rule. I haven't done much study of the OBR DH rule, but the PBUC quote, which is consistent with the MLBUM treatment of the question, suggests the "double switch" you posit is NOT legal because only ONE "defensive substitution" is being made. (Since the pitcher is already in the game on defense, his move to another defensive position is not a "substitution".)

That is, under OBR rules, a pitcher who is being "DH'd for" is NOT "locked" into any spot in the batting order. Therefore, should the pitcher be subbed for and remain in the game as a defensive player, if another sub is brought in at the same time, the DM is free to place the pitcher and the "new" sub in the two spots in the batting order previously occupied by the DH (now terminated) and the other defensive player leaving the game as he siees fit.

As I read it, the difference in the J/R cite you reference is that only ONE defensive sub is coming into the game (King), though TWO players are leaving the game (Eliot & Grant).

Not sure that's correct, but that's how I read it.

JM
That makes sense to me - I am confusing and considering the pitcher (James) as a substitute when in fact he is not substituting, he is simply entering the batting order as a result of him taking a defensive position after leaving the game as the pitcher.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 07, 2009, 08:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,577
Oh please, Rain

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyg08 View Post
Just a piece of advice for next time...state the rule set if you're inquiring about a specific rule set.
'Bout time someone asked a rule question.
No need to place any stipulations on his thread.
__________________
SAump

Last edited by SAump; Sat Mar 07, 2009 at 08:51pm.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 08, 2009, 12:44am
Stop staring at me swan.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,974
I wasn't. But his question had different answers based on rule set. So the answer to his question could be correct w/o a rule set context. I thought I said it nicely.
__________________
It's like Deja Vu all over again
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Substitution question Ref4Tree Basketball 2 Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:24pm
Substitution Question Rickref Basketball 16 Thu Sep 23, 2004 08:45am
Substitution Question? Indy_Ref Basketball 14 Wed Feb 25, 2004 01:04pm
Fed. Substitution Question insatty Baseball 2 Tue Oct 08, 2002 04:00pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:59pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1