Over ruling another umpire

[soonerfan]

Dude, you have only ONE friend out there the whole time and that is your partner. I have see a lot of calls that I KNOW my partner erred on, however if I were to "jump out of the weeds" holloring the latter and reversing the call...we both loose our integrity. We may as well hand them a bat since we would just be giving them another stick to hit us with, and every play from then on would be under scrutiny. So, bad news...bite your lip, turn your head kick some dirt but speak when spoken to. There is never shame in that. JT

[Jerry]

Sooner:
Believe me, Sooner, there are times when I've got more friends and fans on the field and in the stands than my partner is to me. In 20 years of officiating, I've had my share of idiots as partners (and so have they, I'm sure). I've had arrogant and officious oafs overrule me, put their arm around their "drinking buddy" coach and laugh about the "bad call" I've made, their sons playing in the game, etc. You get the picture. The BEST we can do is to officiate our own game to the best of our ability, support our partner when asked and be as professional and cordial as you can to all the participants, including your partner. Even if I have a personality clash with a partner however, I would NEVER try to overule him or show him up. But I don't have to be friends with an idiot.
Jerry

[kylejt]

Pulled foot a non-issue!? I guess you've never worked on the small diamond, in the C position, with the sun in your eyes, and a ball hit to 6 with long reach by 3. Foot on the bag? That's when you hope your PU has a good angle. Me, I'm flippin' coins from over in the C. I'll make the call and see if the manager knows his job.

Kyle

[Tim C]

over 3,100 games, maybe 1,000 of those on the bases, I have never asked for help from the PU on a pulled foot on a play at first.

Lean and a peek have ALWAYS worked for me.

[Jerry]

Kyle,
First of all . . . as an official, it's expected you know the rules. That's not what you get paid to do. You get paid for your judgement. If you're "flipping coins", you not doing what you're being paid to do.

A small diamond, C-position, a ball hit to F6 and you can't get into the proper position to see a pulled foot? What the heck are you doing when the ball is hit? Staying where you're at? With three steps, you should be able to button-hook to a great spot to see the entire play at 1st base. If for some reason you need help, ask your partner before calling anything? But it's your call, dude!

Jerry

[snrmike]

... but all that aside, I ALWAYS tell my partner that I respect his (or her) opinion on close calls. I want to know if I've made a grave error.

Proper position generally cuts down on missed calls, but as noted by several folks, there are times when it's impossible to be everywhere at once.

If you're moving, you can make most calls.

Working with a partner requires that your partner work with you too!

No coin flips! (LOL) I know it was just a "figure of speech". Just call it an "educated guess!"

[Jerry]

Sometimes, "flipping a coin" is a way to make a judgement call. In many games, you've only got two umpires . . . at most! You've got to call something, and process a lot of information in a very short period of time. You should never, ever be in a position where you ask your partner if he "agrees" with your call; or if you think you've "blown" it. As old-timer MLB Umpire Marty Springstead says, "You've got a baseball traveling in excess of 100 mph, athletes at the top of their game, and a "banger" play going on . . . and you're worried about what you're gonna call! Heck, call SOMETHING." The same is true even on the small diamonds with the sun shining in your eyes. You've gotta trust your own judgement, is the point I want to make. And you've got to live with your own decisions. If you've blown it, you've blown it. Get in a better position the next game; and learn from your "blown" calls. No matter how many partners you ask . . . I guarantee you . . . YOU WILL STILL GET SOME CALLS WRONG!!! Call something . . . and deal with what comes next.
Jerry

[jumpmaster]

In my association, we use a couple of signals for those bangers at first. As PU moves up first and gets set, he is watching for a pulled foot, BU moves into position and sets, waiting on the "snap. . .thud". If the PU has a pulled foot, he will place his hand flat against his belly, if he has an out he will place his fist against his belly. As a BU, if you can see it great, you have an extra set of eyes on the play, if you can't. . .well, that's what you get paid for. It's not foolproof, nor relevant in every situation, but it has helped me out this year and it helps with communication, teamwork and hustle by the umpire team.

[Jerry]

And what if your partner doesn't see or look for the flat hand on your belly, and rings up the runner? Oh . . . but the coach sure did! Or you've got a partner who's not in your association and doesn't know the "secret" hand signals? Or chooses to ignore your signal, because he feels his judgement is just as good/bad as yours? What if you're blocked out from a pitch because the catcher popped up in your eyesight just as the curve ball broke over the middle of the plate? You want your partner to "signal" a strike to you? Or a "banger" (as you describe it) at home plate where he's at 3rd base looking down the line and clearly sees the catcher miss the swipe tag? You want him to signal you somehow for reassurance? As BU or PU, you've each got responsibilities and you've each got judgements that have to be made. If for some reason (like a heart attack or stroke) you miss a play, THEN maybe you'd want to seek help from your partner. Otherwise, you've got to call what YOU see. That's your job!
Jerry

[Tim C]

NEVER NEVER NEVER fall for someone telling you they have a "Secret Signal" . . . "SS" are the worst crutch for umpiring:

Reason:

1) They seldom stay "secret" coaches learn them then they are open season,

2) Calls need to be made by the person that owns the call . . . if you need help there is NO REASON ON EARTH for you not to just ASK FOR HELP!

3) We have enough signals that are not secret but neessary for communicating during a game. Everything from Infield fly Situation to Rotation are good solid forms of communicating and enough for good umpires to keep in mind.

4) Umpiring is NOT voting . . . if another umpire is given information before asked what does this say about you and your call.

Please disregard SECRET SIGNALS, they don't accomplish a darn thing.

Listen to Jerry . . . he knows of what he speaks.

[jumpmaster]

Jerry,
you have brought up some very good points, but you are missing something key. We are a TEAM on the field, we don't have to be friends, and we darn sure can't see everything. So if my signal helps my partner out, ok, great! If not, ok, it is still his call to make and I sure won't overrule him on it.

3/4 of the guys that I work with are not in my association. I ALWAYS do a pregame with my partner, and we cover signals, including infield fly on/off, timing play, I'm moving, caught third strike, even GLMs (jj), etc. This is a routine part of my pregame.

The point is we all use signals to communicate situations on the field, but we never lose the responsibilty to make certain calls. This has worked for the guys in my association. If you choose to use this, use it correctly and happy trails! If not, ok, I'll still sleep tonight.

[Edited by jumpmaster on Jun 18th, 2002 at 02:49 PM]

[soonerfan]

Originally posted by Jerry
Sooner:
Believe me, Sooner, there are times when I've got more friends and fans on the field and in the stands than my partner is to me. In 20 years of officiating, I've had my share of idiots as partners (and so have they, I'm sure). I've had arrogant and officious oafs overrule me, put their arm around their "drinking buddy" coach and laugh about the "bad call" I've made, their sons playing in the game, etc. You get the picture. The BEST we can do is to officiate our own game to the best of our ability, support our partner when asked and be as professional and cordial as you can to all the participants, including your partner. Even if I have a personality clash with a partner however, I would NEVER try to overule him or show him up. But I don't have to be friends with an idiot.
Jerry

Jerry,

That is way too bad to hear about some of your partners, I have not had that trouble; Yet I have not been working 20 years. Here we are a bit cliqish with our umps, but there is so much bravado about each other's pride in working that I do not see that happening. I suppose my thread is a bit regionalized. JT

[kylejt]

Jerry,

I can get in a position to see the play, just not if F3 has his foot on the edge of the bag or 1/2" off. My partner, who is 1/3 of the way down the first base line, has the angle. You're saying I shouldn't take advantage of the PU's hustle to do his job and get the angle? Or, are you somehow saying the PU shouldn't bother with getting out behind the dish and getting the angle?

Man, if I'm in D, C or even B, and I know the PU is busting out to do his job, I'll point in with my left hand, ask if F3 was on the bag, and then make my call. That's the way I was taught. But if I'm working with a slug who's planted behind the plate, I won't bother.

Kyle

[Tim C]

Kyle:

This is not about "slug" PU's who don't move out from behind the dish. We have all worked with those guys.

This has everything to do about the BU doing his job and owing the responsibility of HIS calls.

Jerry and I both freely admit to being "old school" and working hard to have our own view of the issues on this call.

I can go on-and-on about the history of two man mechanics (and most likely will in another thread one day) but what we want is for your side to recognize that HARD WORK by the BU can also take care of this issue.

As stated above I worked for more than three decades up upper level ball and never had the need to ask on the pulled foot or sweep tag at first base. My feeling is that the BU owns the call and needs to make that call.

I attended Brinkman twice, extended Spring Training once, Four Multiple Day Pro Clinics, a half dozen One Day Classes taught by MLB Umpires and those classes have ALWAYS taught, "live with your own call!"

I respect your right to use the PU if you feel necessay but I also contend that an experienced BU should never be in the position to even need to ask.

Kyle, some of us old hides are hard to change. We believe that if a play is made and nothing "strange" happens (i.e. the throw pulls a fielder off the base during a force-out, etc.) that calls really make themselves . . .

I think what I am asking is that you recognize the passion that Jerry and I feel in an umpire working hard enough to insure that he can own his own call.

[jumpmaster]

First, there is no excuse for non-hustle by the PU or the BU. Your call is your call, live with it. This is constantly taught, retaught and occasionally beaten into us in the local association. (jj)

Second, the "old guys" in my association realize that we have the same problems with turn-over of high school umpires as other associations do. In addition, few of our guys have attended an advanced camp of some sort. Therefore, we will not always have the top-notch cream on every baseball field every day.

Since we like the common sense solution around here, the "old guys" started using this signal as a means of assisting the younger officials. By NO means is this meant to be an excuse for poor mechanics or poor judgement. It is meant as a tool to assist. By coupling this with constant teaching, coaching and mentoring of young umpires our association has developed a reputation of developing excellent umpires. It works for us.