Over ruling another umpire

[brandda]

We had a similar thread to this about a month ago, but I had a sutuation this weekend which made me question this again.

I was PU for an 11 year old blue/grey all star game and working with a FU who I have worked with many times before and have great respect for. Unfortunately, he had a tough day. On two different calls, he was in a straight line to the play and could not see a salient fact. The first was a lifted foot from first, and the second was a missed tag down the second base line.

My question is this. I looked in the book and it clearly states that I cannot "criticize, seek to reverse, or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it." But, what if you see an egregious error made because you can see something that your partner cannot? Do you absolutely have to wait to be asked for assistance on a call, or can you do anything proactively?

We got the first one sorted out, but the second one stood because I did not feel like there was anything I could do about it without being asked.

Any thoughts?

[Marty Rogers]

Wait until you are asked for "help."

[kylejt]

David,

There's no one to blame but the manager on the those. If he can't get the proper mechanics right, too bad. Missed tag, pulled foot, ball on the ground are all calls that have a possibility of being reversed IF the manager asks the calling umpire to get help. Don't kick yourself for the mistakes of others.

Kyle

[Jerry]

Gotta go with your partner's judgement . . . however faulty it may be. I had a Stan Musial game this past weekend. Low fences in the outfield. Ball apparently hit as a home run in straight away center. I'm PU; partner is BU. I'm watching R2 touch 3rd and BR touching all the bases. He calls it a bounce over; ground rule double. Half the crowd goes crazy! He calls me over . . . I ask him, "Are you absolutely positive it bounced over? It looked like it flew over to me." He say, "Nope. I saw it bounce." Okay. So I call BR back to 2nd base, explain to the irate coaches and teammates that it's a ground rule double. Let's play. I get back into position behind the catcher almost ready to yell "Play", my partner comes running in from Position C . . . . "Wait, wait, wait. I've got a home run. I just asked the Centerfielder if it went over and he said it did." Oh my! (What's the odds of finding an honest defensive player in this case?)

To add to the anecdote, another homer (obvious one) was made by the opponents a couple innings later. Jokingly, we all told the BU, "Hey Mike . . . the Right Fielder said it bounced over." Everyone chuckled . . . and everyone was "gratefully" kind-hearted through the whole ordeal.

Jerry

[Tim C]

Dave:

I always have a problem when one umpire sez:

"My partner obviously missed the call!"

After working for more than three decades in all levels of baseball where players are of shaving age I have seen strange things -- however, I am not sure that each umpire is the best judge of what the other umpire sees and calls.

Several things happen during a game (and a call) that influence things . . . just because the "view" from your area "seems" to be giving a different sample of information it DOES NOT mean what you have seen is correct.

You can believe it in your heart all you want BUT WHAT MAKES YOUR VIEW CORRECT?

If a partner doesn't ask, it is your job to let things finish . . . be available to give input if asked but other than that keep to yourself.

Those that want to jump on the "get the call right at all costs" USUALLY mean a rule or the setting aside of information, NOT just seeing and disagreeing with the call.

[jumpmaster]

This exact situation happened to me this weekend. My partner, who has been calling ball for over 40 years, missed a clear tag at second, because he was standing in the "A". Not a word out of the coaches. I didn't say anything.

Through high school and summer ball, I have been approached by coaches about this umpire and his "decrease" in abilities. Even some of the younger umpires and I have discussed his abilities. Most of the coaches around here know and even played while he was calling through the years.

It is obvious when working with him, that he has problems seeing the ball. He readily admits that he can't hear out of one ear(not necessarily a bad thing) and he consistently stays rooted in one spot. I don't want to say anything because he is considered the grandfather of umpires in this area and this is my rookie year. His actions, judgement and abilities are clearly waning and it is starting to create a bad impression of the assocation our abilities.

At what point do you step up and say enough is enough? Do you approach the guy and try and elicit a graceful exit or do you approach the members of the board and make your concerns known?

[brandda]

Tim - What happened on the lifted foot was that he was in C and had to look all the way across the diamond and simply could not see that the foot had come off the bag. As to the tag, he was on the 2B side of the runner and the "tag" was made on the 1B side so he could not see that the fielder did not have the ball in his glove when he tagged the runner with the glove.

I don't by any stretch mean to criticize. Let me say again that this guy is an excellent umpire. Superman could not have made those calls correctly from where he was standing because he did not have the angle. It also was not a bad mechanics situation, there were just too many base runners for him to be able to cover. I on the other hand was at home and had a perfect angle to see both plays, not because I did anything right, just because I happened to be standing in a better spot for that specific situation.

I just hate to see the kids get punished when there are two of us out there and we cannot necessarily make use of all of the information available to both parties.

[brandda]

Jump - sounds like you have a totally different situation than I do. Unless you have a whole lot more umps than we do, I say you thank him for being there and do the best you can. I would rather have your situation than constantly pulling dads out of the stand to waork the field.

[kylejt]

David,

Those are two classic cases where it is incumbant the manager asks for help. When I'm behind the dish, I bust my hump to get down the line to see a pulled foot. Most of my partners will ask "Kyle, was he on the bag?" if they're out of position. If they don't ask me, and I do see it, it's up to the manager. We can't hold their hands on every call (although on some appeal plays we have to because of curfews).

Kyle

[brandda]

Kyle - OK, but if I understand the rule correctly, the manager can't ask you. He has to ask the FU who can then ask you. Correct?

This is what I am trying to understand. What kind of latitude do I have to act on what I see? Who can ask and when?

[Tim C]

I don't think the two of us can find a common ground on this issue.

You have played the "I don't want the kids to get screwed" card . . . yet most umpires I know understand that umpires do not win and lose games. There are just two many things that impact a game to stand that "the kids got screwed".

Dave, there are good calls, bad calls and obvious calls.

THERE IS NO BACKING ANYWHERE for one umpire to over rule the other. You can obviously give ANY information you want to the other umpire(s). Hopefully you would get together out of ear shot and talk through something that you thought was a "necessary" discussion item.

But never have I tried to overrule another umpire and cannot picture it.

Jon Bible talks a bout a great play with a fair/foul call on a home run. Jon saw the ball obviously go foul yet the other umpire called it fair.

Once the argument ensued Jon did everything he could to get his partner to ASK him for help. Once he did Jon explained the FU to the other umpire and THAT UMPIRE REVERSED HIS CALL. Even though Jon KNEW the call was wrong there was no way he was going to overturn the original call.

I am from the same school.

If we are in a position where mechanics and rules ALLOW to ask for help, and we do it (i.e. checked swing)then I support it, however umpires are even directed by the rule book that there is no OVERRULE allowed.

I have cringed my share of times at calls my partner made (and I am sure some of them winced as well) but there is no process to overrule things like safe/out, fair/foul, etc.

Now I fully support the UIC stopping the misapplication of a RULE (base award, etc) but not the correction of judgment calls.

BTW, I worked a game once where my base umpire (from my view at the dish) had a perfect day . . . seven calls on the bases and seven misses. I did nothing but grimace.

[kylejt]

David,

The manager must ask the umpire who made the ruling. On a dropped ball, pulled foot, missed tag or rule misinterpretation the manager can request the ruling umpire ask for assistance. The only time a BU would "overrule" a PU would be on a HBP or foul ball off the batter. The BU can call those right away.

I was working a district tourney with my 13 year old son yesterday. After giving my pregame about what could and couldn't be questioned, on the first pitch a banger a first. The runner beat the ball by hair, but my son bangs him out. The manager wants me to overrule him. So I ask the manager if he thought there was a pulled foot. End of conversation. Bad call, yep. And my son was the first to admit it (quietly, just to me between innings). Stuff happens. It's just goes with hats with the tiny bills.

Kyle

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by brandda

Kyle - OK, but if I understand the rule correctly, the manager can't ask you. He has to ask the FU who can then ask you. Correct?

This is what I am trying to understand. What kind of latitude do I have to act on what I see? Who can ask and when?

David since you asked, here's Carl Childress's FAB V on calls that may be changed.

FAB 5 (When calls may be legally changed)

1. Half swing called a ball changed to strike. (OBR 9.02c CMTs 1, 2, 3)

2. Two umpires make opposite calls on the same play. (common sense: only one can be accepted)

3. An umpire misapplies a rule. (9.02b/c)

4. Home run changed to double, vice versa; fair to foul, vice versa on balls hit out of the park. (professional practice)

5. "Out" called on a tag play, but the ball falls free, and another umpire observes it. (JEA 9:15-16)

The Terrible Three (Three times a call CANNOT be legally changed after it's made)

1. Swipe tag
2. Force play (or play on BR at first)
3. Fielder on/off the bag

ANY call can be corrected:

Carl: "He's out!" Then, immediately: "No, no, no. Safe! The runner is safe!!" That's bad timing -- but it's legal.

I would recommend using the aformentioned as your guide as to when calls can be changed.

Another way to look at this is the following. All of us at one time or another have called a bad strike. It happens we are all human. To me even though a batter gets 3 of these, one bad strike call is equivalent to a BU making a bad call on the bases.

If the pitch was in the dirt but you called it a strike would you want the BU to Chime right in and say No that was a ball? I don't think so. We all want to get the call right but the fact is we will NOT get every call right.

There are certian calls that belong to the BU and to the PU. As much as we might not like it we cannot overturn our partner unless they ask for help. IMO that's how it should be as any other way, the game could get in the state of chaos.

Since TEE mentioned Jon Bible. I read one of his articles and in it he mentioned that he made a call, but then heard all sorts of moans and groans and in his opinion that sometimes means "hey I better get some help"

Most good umpires will ask for help, they don't have to but most do on the calls in which they can.

Now if it's a continuous type action play, then to put it mildly You are on your own it's virtually impossible to try and go back and correct a call when there's a ton of action on the bases.

Pete Booth

[Ump20]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
This exact situation happened to me this weekend. My partner, who has been calling ball for over 40 years, missed a clear tag at second, because he was standing in the "A". Not a word out of the coaches. I didn't say anything.

Through high school and summer ball, I have been approached by coaches about this umpire and his "decrease" in abilities. Even some of the younger umpires and I have discussed his abilities. Most of the coaches around here know and even played while he was calling through the years.

It is obvious when working with him, that he has problems seeing the ball. He readily admits that he can't hear out of one ear(not necessarily a bad thing) and he consistently stays rooted in one spot. I don't want to say anything because he is considered the grandfather of umpires in this area and this is my rookie year. His actions, judgement and abilities are clearly waning and it is starting to create a bad impression of the assocation our abilities.

At what point do you step up and say enough is enough? Do you approach the guy and try and elicit a graceful exit or do you approach the members of the board and make your concerns known?

Perhaps if this "veteran" umpire really knows the rules he can serve as a school instructor or roving evaluator. If his skills have really deteriorated due to age he should not be assigned to the higher level ballgames. Despite all this if over the years he has been competent and approchable I would remember the good old days and try to figure out why he earned that respect. It is never the position of any umpire to speak poorly of another umpire especially when that umpire is your partner. If someone suggests "old Gus" ain't what he used to be I'd simply say that he is doing the best he can and isn't that what we all should do between the lines.

[Whowefoolin]

If the FU does not see have good view, he should immediately go to the PU and ask, "Did you see a tag?".

Don't make the call as the FU, THEN ask for help!

A pulled foot should be a non issue. Every FU should TRY to put himself in position to make that call!

And the manager. He CAN'T make you go to your partner. He can ask you, but you can say no. It is your call, don't look worse by having the manager sweet talk you in to going to your partner. Stand tall!

So you go to your partner and he reverses it? He looks like the bad guy. Go to you partner before you make a decision.