Overthrows with Pressure

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Kevin,
You're doing it again.

Really.

Now, if you'd rather have a serious discussion about umpiring than a pissing contest....

Cite please.

I believe your assertion to be incorrect. While I believe he would term it an "acceptable" mechanic, I believe he would say the other is "preferred". Maybe he's changed his position on the question since I attended his training.

Cite please.

JM

Sorry, sorry, JM ... you're right, the word was acceptable and not preferred. And I also should have used one of these:

But the point's the same.

Tuss started a great debate, and I truly believe that the PU taking the runner on that play is easily preferable to a B1 possibly interfering with the defensive play, the baserunning play and possibly even the throw to second, all while getting an angle later and being farther away from the potential play at second.

So the PBUC manual says that's the way, and the best defense of it so far has been that the base umpire should take it because he's too proud to have the guy with the head start to second and the better angle take the play.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Tuss:

Jim's new book was written for amateur umpires. It was not written for use by PBUC. There are somethings in it he would not have written if it were. His book has a number of differences from what PBUC expects of its umpires.

As I stated somewhere in this thread, I don't doubt that amateurs teach that it is appropriate for PU to take the runner on a bad throw to first. I have not yet met a professional umpire who agrees. I have put this to a couple of them recently and was basically asked if I was kidding for even brining it up. The usual response is "I never expect my partner to do my job."

Again...To each his own. There are the excitable few who just can't stand to see people work differently than they do. I don't care how others handle this. They can let the PU take the runner and have BU shoot home if they want to. It doesn't matter to me. I'll continue to work this play as I was trained. I'm sincerely sorry if that coninues to upset the southern California contingent.

Jim does a great Job at what he does, I was one of his honor grads in 2000, and I had this play in Lakewood, NJ in the SAL in 2001. I was at the 2nd base cutout and my partner was in front of the 1st base dugout with the catcher and the ball. We were being evaluated that night and complemented on out Instincts and not ridiculed for using a mechanic that wasn't covered in the "Red Book". We were also seen the night before and I was complemented for not pivoting on a HR ball to the left field gap, that ended up coming back onto the field and my partner mistakenly ruled in play. The "Red Book" says pivot, and the way most pros are taught to do it at PBUC is eyes on HR balls. If I would have pivoted I would have missed it and we would have missed it in front off 12,000.

In my 1st base job on Friday with no one on, there was a screamer that went down the 3rd base line and pinned my partner out side, so I held him up and got inside, F5 over threw 1st and I took the BR into 2nd and my U3 was in perfect position at 3rd for the play on the BR at 3rd. U3 is a former PCL guy, between innings he thanked me for picking him up, and I laughed and said he would do the same so no big.

Mr U, I understand why you wouldn't, and I agree that ppl get pressured to easily, but please don't speak for all pro's past and present. And KF, settle down man, just issue a warning, eject and walk away.

[UmpTTS43]

From Maximizing the Two-Umpire System copyright 2008 by JEAPU, authored by Jim Evans and Dick Nelson, pg. 52

4.16 Overthrows at First Base

On all throws which originate from the left side when the base umpire is in fair territory, the plate umpire is responsible for the overthrow. When the base umpire is positioned in foul territory on throws originating from the right side, there are two techniques for handling the overthrow:

1. The base umpire busts into fair territory onto the infield grass as the batter-runner overruns first base. He is responsible for any follow-up play on the batter-runner except at home. When moving into position, it is important that the base umpire observe the batter-runner who has overrun the base. It is critical that the umpire knows whether or not the batter-runner attempte to advance. In this case, the plate umpire is responsible for the ball and must determine whether it goes out of play or is touched by a spectator.

2. An alternate procedure shifts resposibility for the overthrow to the base umpire who is in foul territory and requires the plate umpire to take all subsequent play responsibility on the batter-runner. With no runner on base and a ground ball hit to the right side, the plate umpire should always advance up the first base line so that he is in position to initiate an interference call, take resonsibility for an overthow, or help out whith a swipe tag. Since he is up the line and has a chance to get ahead of the batter-runner if he attempts to advance, some feel that it is more efficient to shift responsibility for the batter-runner to the plate umpire.

Regardless of your personal feelings, it is imperative that these two mechanics are thoroughly disussed prior to the game and each umpire fully understands his responsibilities.

[Durham]

BTW, when I have gotten trapped, and I as the BU have to go to 2nd on this rare play, I find that it is best to go straight to 2nd on the outside and in the dirt. I will get the best angle and distance on this screwed up play.

[UmpTTS43]

BTW, I posted that just for informative purposes.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by Durham

...I had this play in Lakewood, NJ in the SAL in 2001...If I would have pivoted I would have missed it and we would have missed it in front off 12,000.

FirstEnergy Park's listed seating capacity is 6588. They have only twice hosted crowds larger than 10,000. One was last season, and the other was in 2002.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

FirstEnergy Park's listed seating capacity is 6588. They have only twice hosted crowds larger than 10,000. One was last season, and the other was in 2002.

Maybe it was televised.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Originally Posted by PBUC
...However if the base umpire feels pressure form the 2nd baseman moving to his left (or from 1st baseman for that matter), it is permissible for the base umpire to move into foul territory to take this type of play, keeping in mind the the concepts of proper distance and angle to the play. In this situation, should the ball be overthrown at 1st base, the base umpire must be ready to swing aroundin front of the cutout at 1B and then get a wide angle so as to be "ahead of the batter-runner for any play at 2B.

JM...do you have a diagram 2-12 in your copy of the red book? what's in the diagram is not written anywhere in the mechanics text, it only appears in the box.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Durham

Mr U, I understand why you wouldn't, and I agree that ppl get pressured to easily, but please don't speak for all pro's past and present.

Durham:

I speak for myself. I do not speak for you or any other professional umpire.

Nor do I make false claims about proschool owners or instructors.

Neither do I tell others that they cannot possibly work this play in any other manner without screwing it up. I've been doing this long enough to know that some people will just do it "their" way no matter what. That's fine with me.

He!!, its been over ten years since I attended school, they may have changed a lot of instruction by now. I undestand that. I'm attesting to what I do.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

FirstEnergy Park's listed seating capacity is 6588. They have only twice hosted crowds larger than 10,000. One was last season, and the other was in 2002.

Well it was no televised, but it was July 4th 2001, I remember because I was living in Holden, MA at the time and my wife was out for the week. So google the attendance and get back to me.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

JM...do you have a diagram 2-12 in your copy of the red book? what's in the diagram is not written anywhere in the mechanics text, it only appears in the box.

bobby,

My diagram 2-12 shows the "2 steps fair" technique with the pitcher covering on a play at 1B.

Perhaps it's time for me to spring for a new red book?

JM

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Just as "points of information" here is what the PBUC "Red Book" and CCA manuals have to say on the question:

JM

Which Red Book do you have?.. the one I have says if the BU is in foul when a overthrow happens then the PU takes the BR in 2b...

[UmpJM]

Mazza,

I believe I acquired mine in 2005. The copyright inside the front cover says "1991-1999". What's the copyright on yours?

JM

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Mazza,

I believe I acquired mine in 2005. The copyright inside the front cover says "1991-1999". What's the copyright on yours?

JM

I bought mine in 07 copyright 1991-1999 and then it says copyright by the PBUC 200-2006.. if you look on page 15 diagram 2-12 it shows a great pic of the PU taking the BR back into 1st or into 2nd.

[UmpJM]

mazza,

Thanks. It would appear my copy has become "outdated".

JM