Overthrows with Pressure

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

A good one to cover in pregame for sure, I'm interested what the poll says. Here is the sitch...

No runners, outs don't matter. Groundball hit to the left of F4, BU reads pressure and steps into foul territory. F4 overthrows F3.

My opinion is that BU should take this overthrow, and PU should assume B/R.

As taught by both schools and practiced by profesional two man crews, BU has B/R.

I suppose amateurs can do whatever they want.

Since a quality was not made the BU would not have come set and there are options to going into foul territory.

[TussAgee11]

I am in JM's camp somewhat - I too could see situations where either/or is better.

Just curious as to the sitch you talked about JM, could the PU not have moved to the cutout for the throw behind the rounding B/R? Seems like a good enough angle to me, considering that is where BU ends up on a throw behind B/R on a single.

And Mr. Umpire, I appreciate the information about what both schools are teaching. The reason I asked is because Evans' book says that both are accepted mechanics, and it is ultimately up to you and your partner to pregame on it.

Lastly, going into foul territory on pressure is something you must do if you want to develop a good angle, end of story. If you step into fair, you have an awful angle on the catch and pulled foot, even worse on seeing when the runner's foot actually touches the bag because you will be blocked by F3. Take two steps to your left, and its beautiful (but don't get too close or overdevelop the angle! see 1985 World Series!)

[ozzy6900]

The poll is inaccurate so I will not vote.

In a 2 man system, normally the BU will take the BR But, if your PU has grown roots behind the plate, someone has to take the overthrow and it will probably be the BU.

The poll doesn't address a 3, 4 or 6 man crew. As a matter of fact, it doesn't address anything about the number of umpires.

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

The poll is inaccurate so I will not vote.

In a 2 man system, normally the BU will take the BR But, if your PU has grown roots behind the plate, someone has to take the overthrow and it will probably be the BU.

The poll doesn't address a 3, 4 or 6 man crew. As a matter of fact, it doesn't address anything about the number of umpires.

Sorry Ozzy, I was assuming 2 man. Obviously 3 or above it gets alot easier to cover this play adaquately.

Furthermore, I'm not sure if PU has grown roots it should be BU with the overthrow. BU should stay with B/R, if PU isn't moving he sure is heck ain't getting him. Maybe you're saying that BU should take both if PU = Smitty?

Again, apologies. Never worked at Quinnipiac before on polling

[KJUmp]

I'm with Tuss &MrUmp in what they say and their reasoning. I was taught the same way, and have handled that sitch in that manner for a lot of years.
Whether or not BU wants to make that call in fair or foul is really a matter of comfort/personal preference...there's no right or wrong there.
For me it really depends on the angle F4 is taking as he moves to his left to field the ball and make the throw. But let's look at the second part of the play...the overthrow.
BU's first responsibility is the BR...and anything and everything that can happen concerning him. Did he make an attempt to go to 2nd, does he decide to go to 2nd, does he start to go to 2nd and then decides to go back to 1st, possible obstruction? There's no reason for BU to concern himself with the overthrow. One of two things are going to hapen to the ball...(1) it becomes dead or (2) it stays live and in play. PU (who would be moving up the line in the OP's sitch) can easily handle both 1&2 as he's got the play in front of him and can easily move to any position necessary to rule on the ball becoming dead.
BU needs to read & react to the overthrow. If BR goes to 2nd cut behind him and onto the infield grass (if starting from fair territory) pick-up the ball over his right shoulder and let the thorw dictate his angle to make the call at 2nd. If he started in foul territory...it's a straight sprint to the infield grass...and then follows the same process. This should not be a difficult move for BU 99.999% of the time if he has moderate to decent "wheels". If the ball stays live, and BR stated to 2nd then goes back to 1st BR is in position to make the call at 1st should there be a play.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Lastly, going into foul territory on pressure is something you must do if you want to develop a good angle, end of story.

Nonsense. There is more to the story. Ask the PBUC evaluators some time.

[Maz17]

This is so stupid. There is NO QUESTION in my mind that all of you... I do not care if you are an Olympic Sprinter... none of you... as a BU can stay ahead of a B/R if you read pressure and go foul! And if you try you will be on the move for a call at 2nd.

THE RED (PBUC) MANUAL states that the PU will take the B/R if the BU reads pressure and goes foul.

If the BU takes the B/R you will be looking up his rear... and have a bad angle... and be on the move!

GUYS... THINK IT THROUGH!

[johnnyg08]

I agree Maz17...there's no other way to cover this IMO...I guess in my pregames, this is how we'll do it...those who disagree on here can do it their way.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I am totally in agreement. I had this exact play, my partner went foul as I was going to the 45, and I just turned left and told him I had second. There was a play and I was set and at a great angle and was able to get the play right.

He busts toward second with the runner, and just like the man said, he would have been making the call on the run from 75 feet away while I'm doing ... what?

[johnnyg08]

Kevin, were you PU? I'm not sure what side you're taking on this one? Just for discussion...thanks.

[griff901c]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

Keep the PU on the overthrow. Keep BU w/ the runner. What if there's a play at 3B? now you have PU in the middle of the diamond, potentially in a throwing lane. Keep it simple...my version.

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I agree Maz17...there's no other way to cover this IMO...I guess in my pregames, this is how we'll do it...those who disagree on here can do it their way.

did Maz17 change your mind?BTW I voted pu take the BR into 2nd...

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Maz17

This is so stupid. There is NO QUESTION in my mind that all of you... I do not care if you are an Olympic Sprinter... none of you... as a BU can stay ahead of a B/R if you read pressure and go foul!

Sorry. I apologize for reading right through the part about BU going into foul territory at first read.

I would not have done so. I have learned through some young A and AA umpires and their evaluators that there really is hardly ever a "need" to go foul. (One of the great things about this area is that I can choose to watch a Single A, Double A or Triple A game most days, and get to chat with young umpires with a variety of experience)

I do not go into foul territory.

I am retired and not an Olympic sprinter and even I can bust in and get to the cut out at second ahead of B/R. I don't see the problem.

[johnnyg08]

well, i'm not sure if he changed my mind or not. honestly, in a game I'm doing, BU is going to stay with the runner (at least that will be the original plan)...unless for some reason I'm PU and I realize that he's not going to get there. I'll try to cover for him. If I look over and my partner pushed himself way foul...then i better read that and bust my tail out there. many times you just have to read your partner and the play...if you follow the book, and there's nobody at the base for a play...the book doesn't matter.

[UmpTTS43]

This has to be covered during pregame. It is an acceptable and taught mechanic for pressure situations. As PU you should be no closer than the 45' running lane. If that is the case, you should have no problem creating an angle for any subsequent play at 2nd. As fast as some of these HS kids are, not to mention college players, the BU having to travel across the diamond and have an angle on the play is nearly impossible. I'm not saying you would not be able to see the play, but it will look like you didn't. This is one of those times that you earn your money as a PU.

Again, Pregame, Pregame, Pregame.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

I have learned through some young A and AA umpires and their evaluators that there really is hardly ever a "need" to go foul. .

You are right, there is hardly ever a need. But, were talking about the time when there is a need. If your not flexible enough to adjust your positioning for any situation what-so-ever than I guess your right.

"To each his own."