Courtesy Runner/Substitution

[mrm21711]

Under NFHS rules: SS bats a double and coach wants to put in a substitute runner for the him. Coach requests time and is granted time and makes the switch. Earlier in the game, the same SS has already had a PR for him, so he has already used his reentry privileges and would be out of the game. However, coach realizes he made a mistake and wants the SS to come back out in the next half inning to pitch. As time is still out and the ball is still dead, coach has the SS return to 2B to run.

My understanding of the NFHS rule is the substitute is not entered until he takes his place and the ball is live. Therefore, he would be allowed to come back in and run. Is this correct? I noticed 3-1-1 contains some language about "should there be no announcement of substitutions..." the substitute has entered the game when ball is live and he takes his place. Does this mean announcement by PU to the scorekeeper? The rule does not seem to explain this. Thanks.

[btdt]

Using a courtesy runner does not constitute a "substitution".
You can courtesy run for pitcher/catcher every time they are on base and the CR is not a sub, he is a CR.
Since they have not substituted for the pitcher/catcher when using CR your problem is solved if the umpires know the NFHS rules.
Also remember the CR can not have been in the game and after he is a CR he still have his original entry privileges.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

Under NFHS rules: Pitcher bats a double and coach wants to put in a CR for the pitcher. Coach requests time and is granted time and makes the switch. Earlier in the game, the same pitcher has already had a CR for him, so he has already used his reentry privileges and would be out of the game.

No. CRs are not substitutions, and re-entry is not an issue.

Originally Posted by mrm21711

However, coach realizes he made a mistake and wants the pitcher to come back out in the next half inning to pitch. As time is still out and the ball is still dead, coach has the pitcher return to 2B to run.

My understanding of the NFHS rule is the substitute is not entered until he takes his place and the ball is live. Therefore, he would be allowed to come back in and run. Is this correct? I noticed 3-1-1 contains some language about "should there be no announcement of substitutions..." the substitute has entered the game when ball is live and he takes his place. Does this mean announcement by PU to the scorekeeper? The rule does not seem to explain this. Thanks.

No, it refers to announcing it to the other team.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by btdt

Using a courtesy runner does not constitute a "substitution".
You can courtesy run for pitcher/catcher every time they are on base and the CR is not a sub, he is a CR.
Since they have not substituted for the pitcher/catcher when using CR your problem is solved if the umpires know the NFHS rules.
Also remember the CR can not have been in the game and after he is a CR he still have his original entry privileges.

My mistake in originally typing this. My memory was a little foggy and this was a real world situation that happened in our area a few years ago. The Shortstop was a star on the team and came in to pitch the next half inning...hence me referring to him as a pitcher. The original post has been modified....it was the coach trying to substitute a pinch runner for the shortstop (who already re-entered earlier in the game).

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

Under NFHS rules: SS bats a double and coach wants to put in a substitute runner for the him. Coach requests time and is granted time and makes the switch. Earlier in the game, the same SS has already had a PR for him, so he has already used his reentry privileges and would be out of the game. However, coach realizes he made a mistake and wants the SS to come back out in the next half inning to pitch. As time is still out and the ball is still dead, coach has the SS return to 2B to run.

My understanding of the NFHS rule is the substitute is not entered until he takes his place and the ball is live. Therefore, he would be allowed to come back in and run. Is this correct? I noticed 3-1-1 contains some language about "should there be no announcement of substitutions..." the substitute has entered the game when ball is live and he takes his place. Does this mean announcement by PU to the scorekeeper? The rule does not seem to explain this. Thanks.

Sticky situation here. The question becomes when do you recognize the substitution.

IMO, if the coach realizes the ramifiacations of the PR before you put the ball back in play, I would allow the "re-entry" of the SS." If, however, the defensive coach brings it to your attention, the SS would not be allowed to return. Preventative umpiring in this sitch. My determining factor would be, who knows the rule better? Call me on it and I would enforce the rule to the letter. Otherwise, no harm, no foul. This is where we are to make judements that we are paid for. I can explain it either way.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

My mistake in originally typing this. My memory was a little foggy and this was a real world situation that happened in our area a few years ago. The Shortstop was a star on the team and came in to pitch the next half inning...hence me referring to him as a pitcher. The original post has been modified....it was the coach trying to substitute a pinch runner for the shortstop (who already re-entered earlier in the game).

"The UIC shall record any reported substitution and then announce any change(s) to the opposing team. ... Should there be no announcement ..."

So, once the UIC records it and tells the opposing team, it's too late to back out. You don't say if that's what happened in the play in question.

[johnnyg08]

He's not a pitcher until he pitches though...so the coach is saying while on offense, I want a CR for him because he's going to pitch in the next half inning?

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

He's not a pitcher until he pitches though...so the coach is saying while on offense, I want a CR for him because he's going to pitch in the next half inning?

No I originally mistyped it. The coach was planning to bring him on to pitch the next half inning, but he was in the game as the SS when he hit a double and was removed for the apparent second time.

From the newspaper article online (when they refer to the "Senior" Allie, the star shortstop's father is the coach of the team as well):

It wouldn't be St. Edward vs. St. Ignatius without a little controversy. The dispute began when Stetson Allie followed Lavisky's hit with his second double of the day, a rocket-shot that bounced off the fence just to the right of the 385-foot sign. The senior Allie sent Mike Short in to pinch-run for his son, the second time he used that maneuver in the game. Under the high school re-entry rules, the second time a player is replaced with a courtesy runner he must leave the game for good.

St. Ignatius coach Brad Ganor and assistant T.J. Donovan argued vigorously with home plate umpire Gary Rosplohowski to no avail. Allie was returned to the game before the next pitch was thrown. Ganor, a St. Edward graduate, maintained his composure after the game, but was visibly upset.

"I was shocked when they took Stetson out," said Ganor. "It's not official until the ump says it's official. I asked the ump if the change was official and he said it was. Then he said the change wasn't official because another pitch hadn't been thrown. The rule clearly states another pitch does not have to be thrown."

Carrying a rule book onto the field, Donovan and Ganor approached Rosplohowski at the half-inning change to plead their case again.

"He wouldn't hear of it," said Ganor. Tournament officials declined to make the umpires available afterward.

[DG]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

Under NFHS rules: SS bats a double and coach wants to put in a substitute runner for the him. Coach requests time and is granted time and makes the switch. Earlier in the game, the same SS has already had a PR for him, so he has already used his reentry privileges and would be out of the game. However, coach realizes he made a mistake...

Time was called, change was made, and a "substitute" runner came out to replace the SS on 2B. "He is in coach, and SS is out for duration of the game since he has already be substituted for and re-entered."

Substitutions are made during dead ball often.

[mikebran]

A confusing thread after a decent question. Can I get the 101 answer?

Reiterate:

After BATTER(SS) double and time, coach comes to me to place legal SUB (pinch runner) for BATTER(SS) on 2nd.

Now several things could have happened, depending on the PU.

1. If it was me, lineup card comes out and I would IMMEDIATELY notice that SS had been pinch ran for earlier and SS was a reenter. I would MENTION this. Isn't this easy Preventative Umpiring?

2. Or SKIPPY the PU, who does not Preventative Umpire, simply records legal change as directed by Manager. PU informs other bench of change.

Question: When does change become official or irreversible? Upon announcement to other bench?

So seconds after to announce change, Manager comes to you and goes, Oh No My Bad! I screwed Up. I forgot I had subbed him earlier.

tough noogies?

It would seem that in a competitive HS game. Other bench is going to take advantage of coach screw up. Not going to allow a do - over.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by mikebran

A confusing thread after a decent question. Can I get the 101 answer?

Reiterate:

After BATTER(SS) double and time, coach comes to me to place legal SUB (pinch runner) for BATTER(SS) on 2nd.

Now several things could have happened, depending on the PU.

1. If it was me, lineup card comes out and I would IMMEDIATELY notice that SS had been pinch ran for earlier and SS was a reenter. I would MENTION this. Isn't this easy Preventative Umpiring?

2. Or SKIPPY the PU, who does not Preventative Umpire, simply records legal change as directed by Manager. PU informs other bench of change.

Question: When does change become official or irreversible? Upon announcement to other bench?

So seconds after to announce change, Manager comes to you and goes, Oh No My Bad! I screwed Up. I forgot I had subbed him earlier.

tough noogies?

It would seem that in a competitive HS game. Other bench is going to take advantage of coach screw up. Not going to allow a do - over.

Preventative umpiring is the best practice for subs. If you have your lineup card out and clearly see that the coach is making an illegal sub, just simply say "coach you can't do that."

In your play, what the coach is doing is legal. When he goes to sub someone for the SS I would say "Ok, the SS is done for the day now." If he then replies with "Oh wait nevermind," then I will disallow the sub and keep the SS in the game. If he replies with "ok" (or something similar to show that he indeed knows the SS is done for the day), then I will allow the sub as normal.

Hope that helps!

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by bossman72

Preventative umpiring is the best practice for subs. If you have your lineup card out and clearly see that the coach is making an illegal sub, just simply say "coach you can't do that."

In your play, what the coach is doing is legal. When he goes to sub someone for the SS I would say "Ok, the SS is done for the day now." If he then replies with "Oh wait nevermind," then I will disallow the sub and keep the SS in the game. If he replies with "ok" (or something similar to show that he indeed knows the SS is done for the day), then I will allow the sub as normal.

Hope that helps!

Hard to believe this was a state Division I championship game in Ohio last year. My understanding (We all understand the rule, but from what I have heard) is the crew completely screwed this one up. Sounds like they got confused and used the explanation to the opposing coach (after announcing the substitute) that a pitch wasnt thrown. Obviously 3-1-1 doesnt make any mention of a pitch. Could make a case of poor game management as well.