Missed Home

[Matt]

Originally Posted by greymule

It is something of a contradiction, since a good umpire should want to become a better umpire and use every means at his disposal to improve his performance. Therefore, he would need the books. But since B does not follow from A—and many would argue that A is false to begin with—the statement is also a non sequitur. Of course, we probably differ on the meaning of "good" in terms of umpiring.

If all you have is the OBR book, how are you going to call the play in which the runner from 2B, on a ground ball to short, stops in front of F6 to block his vision, and then, with no contact made, continues toward 3B just before the ball bounces up and hits F6 in the nose?

The "good" umpire—the one with only the OBR book and without the interpretive guides—could certainly call the runner out for interference. The "good" umpire could argue that the runner "hinder[ed] a fielder attempting to make a play on a batted ball," that by intentionally positioning himself in the way, he committed an act that "interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play." The "good" umpire would follow the book and make the wrong call.

Without the interpretive guides, you're going to call a lot of plays the wrong way. A good umpire does not call a lot of plays the wrong way.

There are dozens more plays—real-life plays, not third-world plays—that require knowledge not in the rule book.

Non sequitur means that the speaker/writer intended for B to follow from A. That was not the case here.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Umpmazza

I think most of you missed the point.... I didnt say I dont have any books... I have all the books avail except J/R and BRD.... I have the Balk video, the Virtual umpire CD.. and a few more I cant think of.

"All the books" but not J/R or BRD. Which Balk video? A few more you can't think of... I wonder what you learned from the ones you can't think of? Good luck with your "live" interpretations.

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by DG

"All the books" but not J/R or BRD. Which Balk video? A few more you can't think of... I wonder what you learned from the ones you can't think of? Good luck with your "live" interpretations.

I have the CCA manual as I umpire College ball Div-II, Div-III and JUCO... I h ave the PBUC both red and Blue. Jim Evan Balk Video is there any other MLB Umpires manual : Procedures and Interpretations. And for High School I have ther rules by topic...

So I will have good luck with these books... Thanks Buddy

[SAump]

You won't find this in a rule book.
THE LAST TIME BY.
by George Lucy & Warren Wilson
Link: THE LAST TIME BY

The Major League enforcement criteria for OBR 7.10(d) require that a runner who has missed home plate must be still be tagged for an out while ever he remains in the "immediate vicinity" of the base. However, once the runner leaves that "immediate vicinity", usually interpreted to be the 26 foot cut-out around the plate, the defense is no longer required to chase him for the tag out but may instead appeal the now missed plate whether or not the runner makes a subsequent attempt to return and correct his error.

Kylejt inquired about the dirt "circle" in post #2. I think he may have made the right call.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Umpmazza

I have the CCA manual as I umpire College ball Div-II, Div-III and JUCO... I h ave the PBUC both red and Blue. Jim Evan Balk Video is there any other MLB Umpires manual : Procedures and Interpretations. And for High School I have ther rules by topic...

So I will have good luck with these books... Thanks Buddy

Oh, so you are a college guy..., you should get the Study Guide: College Baseball Rules....

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by SAump

Not enough information.
Was R2 inside or outside the dirt circle? I don't know.
Is, "I'm appealing," a valid appeal? I don't know.
I have an incomplete sentence structure!
Until I know the answer to kylejt's question, I have no ruling, except for HTBT.

What does R2 being inside or outside the dirt circle have to do with anything?

Tim.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

What does R2 being inside or outside the dirt circle have to do with anything?
Tim.

The OP tells you what the catcher did.
It fails to provide information about the runner.
Which option is close enough to meet the "established" criteria?
How long does immediately take?
About as much as option A) scrambling back to tag the plate from the area near the dugout.
Where does immediate vicinity begin?
About as much as B) heading toward the dugout from the area near the plate.
Where is R2, how did he get there, and what did he do afterwards?
I am willing to give either team the benefit of doubt.
But I need that info to make a ruling on this play.

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by DG

Oh, so you are a college guy..., you should get the Study Guide: College Baseball Rules....

...I have the 2009 College Study Guide that is where i got this OP question.

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by SAump

You won't find this in a rule book.
THE LAST TIME BY.
by George Lucy & Warren Wilson
Link: THE LAST TIME BY

Kylejt inquired about the dirt "circle" in post #2. I think he may have made the right call.

NCAA has the last time by in there rule book... Rule 2. page 46.

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by SAump

The OP tells you what the catcher did.
It fails to provide information about the runner.
Which option is close enough to meet the "established" criteria?
How long does immediately take?
About as much as option A) scrambling back to tag the plate from the area near the dugout.
Where does immediate vicinity begin?
About as much as B) heading toward the dugout from the area near the plate.
Where is R2, how did he get there, and what did he do afterwards?
I am willing to give either team the benefit of doubt.
But I need that info to make a ruling on this play.

you cant have more info.,.. The OP was from the College Stude guide.. Quit reading into the question so much... The runner didnt not Immediately return to the plate, therefore in A F2 would have had to tag the runner as he was making an attempt to return to the plate by Immediately scrambling back. In be He ( the runner) got up and headed for the dugout and wasnt gonna make and attempt to return to touch the plate. I put the answers here again for you to read..




In (a), R2 is not out and the run counts. F2 would have had to tag him for the appeal. In (b), it is an appeal play and R2 is out since he left the plate area heading for the dugout. The runner has to make an Immediate effort to return, of course this is a judgment call.[/QUOTE]

[SAump]

Yes, the correct answers have been given a 1/2 dozen times, or more.
What I have been trying to say, put down the book.
The catcher is standing on the plate with the ball, "I'm appealing!"
A) Did he make it up to gain an unfair advantage, or B) is he alert to the actions around him?
In A) I would allow the runner to correct his mistake. In B) I would grant the appeal.
The direction the runner is facing, either scrambling back or headed to, has no bearing on my call.

Who ran past the plate to avoid a tag play?
Had he slid into the plate, there would have been a tag out or a safe ruling.
Had he stayed relatively close to the plate, there would have been a tag out or safe ruling.
Yes, I would use the dirt area around the plate in my criteria for granting an appeal too.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Umpmazza

what in the heck do you mean Unrelaxed or relaxed? what is the hell does that mean.

I think you made the right call here, for the wrong reason.
Pete Booth answered correctly in post #10, further clarification was needed in B.
Hopefully, I have my fingers crossed, someone will understand further clarification was need in A, as well.
F2 wouldn't have time to relax with an advancing B/R.
Props to him for knowing how to handle a "perplexing" situation.
What do we have, DP? The well-coached teams usually pull it off.

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by SAump

Yes, the correct answers have been given a 1/2 dozen times, or more.
What I have been trying to say, put down the book.
The catcher is standing on the plate with the ball, "I'm appealing!"
A) Did he make it up to gain an unfair advantage, or B) is he alert to the actions around him?
In A) I would allow the runner to correct his mistake. In B) I would grant the appeal.
The direction the runner is facing, either scrambling back or headed to, has no bearing on my call.

Who ran past the plate to avoid a tag play?
Had he slid into the plate, there would have been a tag out or a safe ruling.
Had he stayed relatively close to the plate, there would have been a tag out or safe ruling.
Yes, I would use the dirt area around the plate in my criteria for granting an appeal too.

A) Did he make it up to gain an unfair advantage, or B) is he alert to the actions around him?


Did you read... The Catcher missed the tag,and the runner missed home, So F@ jump up and said" i'm appealing".. then F2 threw the ball to 2nd to try and retire a advancing BR... when/where was he trying to gain a unfair advantage? He knew that he missed the tag and R2 missed home, so and for him to gain a unfair advantage?....


The direction the runner is facing, either scrambling back or headed to, has no bearing on my call.

The direction the runner is facing.. where was that in the OP?... all it said was he was scrambling back to home... and then he ( the runner) left the plate area headed fro the dugout.

[Umpmazza]

Originally Posted by SAump

Who ran past the plate to avoid a tag play?
Had he slid into the plate, there would have been a tag out or a safe ruling.
Had he stayed relatively close to the plate, there would have been a tag out or safe ruling.
Yes, I would use the dirt area around the plate in my criteria for granting an appeal too.

Ran past the plate? where in the heck are you making this stuff up from?... the runner missed home,Have you never seen a runner miss home on a slide where he is just sticking out hand to touch the plate?...

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by SAump

Yes, I would use the dirt area around the plate in my criteria for granting an appeal too.

The "dirt area" should not be used to determine whether or not a runner who missed home can come back and correct his mistake. As long as he has not reached his dugout, he is allowed to go back and touch home. If such runner reaches, but does not enter, the dugout, and is making an attempt to touch home, he must be tagged for the out.

Even though the "dirt area" was included in the D3K senarios, it has no place in determining when a runner can correct his non-touch of home. The protest would/should be upheld if one should arise. We cannot make up arbitrary rules for which there is no support.

There are only two instances when a player cannot go back and touch home. One, as stated, when he has entered the dugout, and two, when a following runner has scored.